Leeds Bradford: General Airport Discussion & Updates

Use this prefix for new threads for Leeds Bradford Airport
It was 'acquired', (as I understand it) by a previous SATCO from somewhere down south. I think the plan was to use it while the old faithful tower was being re-equipped in 2005 but the CAA had reservations. So it remained unused and old faithful remained operational during the refit.
 
Looks like there are two different pay offers, one for the Air Traffic Controllers and one for the ancillary staff. LBA has reiterated it has contingency plans to work around any disruption.

 
It appears that ACAS are to mediate in the pay dispute between LBA and Unite, with both parties welcoming this. Consequently, all strike action planned for next week has been cancelled.

Meanwhile, LBA have issued publicity confirming that for the first time in it's history, it will offer 100 routes in 2027.
 
How many routes does LBA currently serve? Clearly some further new routes to be announced!
It’s a bit misleading as no other airport counts “routes”, they count destinations served. It’s a marketing ploy to try push a bigger number.

Counting destinations, we are level with 2024’s number I believe.
 
Well, with a publicly owned DSA 2 using public money to try to prise airlines away from those that are privately owned, especially LBA, it would appear that they may yet find that doing so is not allowed, as Bristol Airport have been granted leave to appeal to the Appeals Court after losing their case against Cardiff Airport earlier this year.

 
Well, with a publicly owned DSA 2 using public money to try to prise airlines away from those that are privately owned, especially LBA, it would appear that they may yet find that doing so is not allowed, as Bristol Airport have been granted leave to appeal to the Appeals Court after losing their case against Cardiff Airport earlier this year.

And Aena have deep pockets when it comes to protecting their investment.
 
Well, with a publicly owned DSA 2 using public money to try to prise airlines away from those that are privately owned, especially LBA, it would appear that they may yet find that doing so is not allowed, as Bristol Airport have been granted leave to appeal to the Appeals Court after losing their case against Cardiff Airport earlier this year.

Doesn't necessarily mean they will plus the Cardiff case may well be different from an airport that is reinstating itself. Hearing isn't until mid 2027 and I suspect whoever loses will appeal the verdict.
Will probably eventually end up at the UN🤣
 
Doesn't necessarily mean they will plus the Cardiff case may well be different from an airport that is reinstating itself. Hearing isn't until mid 2027 and I suspect whoever loses will appeal the verdict.
Will probably eventually end up at the UN🤣
Maybe - BUT LBA or any other airport taking this court would significantly delay the drawdown of funds detailed in the SAU report until after a judgement is made. This would likely have a significant impact on the DSA project. Add to that DSA has never made a profit in its whole history and isn’t expected to make a profit for at least another ten years there are some direct similarities to the proposals by the Welsh government to support an unviable business.
As this article states - for an appeal to be granted it has to have “a reasonable prospect of success” so there is obviously something in it…..https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/projects-and-regeneration/317-projects-features/102109-airport-subsidy-control-case-heads-to-court-of-appeal
 
Maybe - BUT LBA or any other airport taking this court would significantly delay the drawdown of funds detailed in the SAU report until after a judgement is made. This would likely have a significant impact on the DSA project. Add to that DSA has never made a profit in its whole history and isn’t expected to make a profit for at least another ten years there are some direct similarities to the proposals by the Welsh government to support an unviable business.
As this article states - for an appeal to be granted it has to have “a reasonable prospect of success” so there is obviously something in it…..https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/projects-and-regeneration/317-projects-features/102109-airport-subsidy-control-case-heads-to-court-of-appeal
We'll see what happens, I know the DSA LBA rivalry is very tribal and intense but i hope many here won't wish CWL ill because a judgement against the Welsh government might and I say might be perceived as possibly scuppering a chance of DSA reopening.
 
We'll see what happens, I know the DSA LBA rivalry is very tribal and intense but i hope many here won't wish CWL ill because a judgement against the Welsh government might and I say might be perceived as possibly scuppering a chance of DSA reopening.
I think the problem here is that, on mainland UK, airlines don’t see arbitrary boundaries as some kind of stop point where they draw their catchment areas. I can understand why the Welsh Government wants its capital city served by a successful airport, so long may that continue provided they’re playing by the rules.

In the case of DSA, it would be starting from a base of zero. The airlines it needs to attract already operate from at least one of the established airports surrounding it, and the market has previously had the opportunity to support DSA and largely rejected it.

Whilst it’ll be interesting to see how the appeal is heard this time around, I don’t think the parallels are as stark as they might first appear. CWL is open and operating. Even if there was ultimately a finding against the Welsh Government over unfair subsidy, it wouldn’t suddenly lose the traffic it has already established.

DSA is different because it needs to create that traffic. That doesn’t necessarily mean aircraft physically moving from LBA or EMA. It could mean an airline’s next available aircraft being allocated to DSA because the publicly supported commercial package is more attractive than what a privately owned competitor can reasonably offer.

I’m not against state-owned infrastructure. There’s a lot to be said for roads and railways being publicly owned, but airports are inherently different because the airlines using them are private businesses which need to make a return on extremely expensive and mobile assets.

On the whole, DSA couldn’t attract enough sustainable airline activity previously, so I’d expect LBA and others to watch very closely indeed what DSA eventually offers.
 
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so long may that continue provided they’re playing by the rules.
Which the CAT ruled they were.
We'll have to wait and see what happens the appeal isn't until mid 2027 and then I suspect there'll be more legal stuff after that as well especially if the ruling goes against Bristol again.
but airports are inherently different because the airlines using them are private businesses which need to make a return on extremely expensive and mobile assets.
Yet most airports around the world are owned by the state in some way and many in the UK are also owned by the state including LeedsBradford nemesis Manchester Airport. It does depend on how you see airports as well. Whether part of the national transport infrastructure like roads and rail or something else.
 
We'll see what happens, I know the DSA LBA rivalry is very tribal and intense but i hope many here won't wish CWL ill because a judgement against the Welsh government might and I say might be perceived as possibly scuppering a chance of DSA reopening.
It’s not a case of wishing CWL - it is a case of what is fair and legal on competition grounds….
Whilst other airports may have a level of public ownership how many of those are funded using tax payer funds?
 
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Which the CAT ruled they were.
We'll have to wait and see what happens the appeal isn't until mid 2027 and then I suspect there'll be more legal stuff after that as well especially if the ruling goes against Bristol again.

Yet most airports around the world are owned by the state in some way and many in the UK are also owned by the state including LeedsBradford nemesis Manchester Airport. It does depend on how you see airports as well. Whether part of the national transport infrastructure like roads and rail or something else.
I don’t disagree that publicly owned airports can work, and I’ve no ideological problem with CWL being publicly owned either. The CAT has also ruled in favour of the Welsh Government as things stand, so we’ll have to see what the Court of Appeal eventually makes of Bristol’s arguments.

Where I disagree is using Manchester, or indeed state-owned airports elsewhere in the world, as evidence that the DSA (and to an extent CWL) proposition therefore makes sense. Different countries have completely different aviation markets, subsidy regimes and strategic reasons for supporting airports. MAG is also a fundamentally different proposition. It is an established commercial airport group with Manchester, Stansted and East Midlands, huge existing traffic flows and established airline relationships. Public ownership didn’t have to create that underlying airline market.

DSA would effectively be starting again from zero. SYMCA can make sure the runway is open, employ the staff and operate the terminal, but it cannot make easyJet, Jet2 or Ryanair put aircraft there. Those are private companies deciding where extremely expensive and mobile assets will generate the best return.

That’s also where subsidy becomes interesting. My concern isn’t that publicly owned airports shouldn’t be allowed to compete. It’s what happens if public money allows DSA to offer airlines commercial terms that established privately financed airports cannot reasonably match. An airline doesn’t even need to transfer an existing aircraft from LBA for there to be a competitive effect. Its next aircraft might simply go to DSA because the publicly supported deal is better.

So for me the question isn’t really public versus private ownership. It’s whether public money is being used to create genuinely additional connectivity, or to distort a commercial market for airline capacity which already exists and is already serving the region.

That’s why the Bristol/Cardiff appeal is interesting. It may ultimately change nothing, but if it changes how closely those competitive effects have to be examined, I’d expect DSA’s neighbours to pay very close attention. I have to say I sympathise with both sides on the BRS/CWL debate.
 
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or to distort a commercial market for airline capacity which already exists and is already serving the region
It could also depend on how you see the region itself. I see Wales as a distinct country in it's own right and should be able to connect directly to the world as much as possible. I'd expect that the people behind DSA will see South Yorkshire especially as distinct and want to enable connectivity as much as possible so people don't have to travel outside of the region to not just LeedsBradford but East Midlands and Manchester.
 

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