A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

So Mr. Strickland says what we have been saying in here for the past 2 years. It is good to know he agrees, but with ultimate respect to him, you don't need to be an aviation consultant to predict a rocky road for DSA2. It seems highly unlikely his comments will make a difference. The politicians, mechanics, locals, LBA dissidents and they with a well paid job to protect think they know better, or pretend they do.

The sad thing is that some people will give up jobs to apply for jobs at DSA2 in the belief it will be secure. Those jobs may not be as secure as they think.
Mark Chadwick has gone into full meltdown mode. Throwing posts out demanding that the reporting is fair (or basically his view only) and that Vincent Hodder and John Strickland are in cahoots and being hypocritical.

The man’s lost the plot and probably not far off getting himself into some big trouble.
 
Mark Chadwick has gone into full meltdown mode. Throwing posts out demanding that the reporting is fair (or basically his view only) and that Vincent Hodder and John Strickland are in cahoots and being hypocritical.

The man’s lost the plot and probably not far off getting himself into some big trouble.
I don’t know about getting himself in trouble, he’s a useful mouth piece for the project so I expect SYMCA and CDC will want to keep him on side, despite the lack of professionalism. What I find interesting through is how he’s now saying it’s no longer if DSA opens it’s when, why he feels the need to be defensive rather than confident.

He might have to get used to scrutiny now, before there wasn’t a lot to scrutinise from a news media point of view, but now that there are plans for SYMCA to purchase the site and the board are likely to wave it through he should expect far more public scrutiny than was applied whilst negotiations were ongoing. Will be interesting to see how that’s handled on there as his posts are contradictory in that he accepts that scrutiny is needed.
 
I don’t know about getting himself in trouble, he’s a useful mouth piece for the project so I expect SYMCA and CDC will want to keep him on side, despite the lack of professionalism. What I find interesting through is how he’s now saying it’s no longer if DSA opens it’s when, why he feels the need to be defensive rather than confident.

He might have to get used to scrutiny now, before there wasn’t a lot to scrutinise from a news media point of view, but now that there are plans for SYMCA to purchase the site and the board are likely to wave it through he should expect far more public scrutiny than was applied whilst negotiations were ongoing. Will be interesting to see how that’s handled on there as his posts are contradictory in that he accepts that scrutiny is needed.
If he continues to allege publicly that Vince Hodder is in collusion with John Strickland, then he could be in a different kind of trouble, facing a slander case. He often skates on thin ice with his accusations, many of which include Vince Hodder who according to him, is also in bed with the Yorkshire Post and YEP (quite funny given we tend to think both, historically, have been pro DSA and anti LBA)!
 
Sky news carrying a report on DSA on their website….Interviews with Foster (who looks and sounds more like an Arthur Daley character each time he appears) and Coppard who still can’t provide a Costa sweet about how this project willl ever make a dime….Apparently their pet name for this project is now Heathrow of the North…..🤣
 
Sky news carrying a report on DSA on their website….Interviews with Foster (who looks and sounds more like an Arthur Daley character each time he appears) and Coppard who still can’t provide a Costa sweet about how this project willl ever make a dime….Apparently their pet name for this project is now Heathrow of the North…..🤣
Heathrow of the North? Well think back to 2004, that’s exactly what it was being sold as then, I remember it being mentioned that they could easily build a second runway on the land. But then they realised easyjet couldn’t even get profitable loads on a single outstationed aircraft, aer Lingus franchise partners had on average a handful of passenger's on board, a weekly Toronto flight by Flyglobespan likewise had on occasion forward bookings in the single digits. But it’s going to be Heathrow of the North?

I’m not afraid to admit that I’m a cautious supporter of Burnham, I think he offers hope. Certainly if he makes moves to get us back into the EU he can throw as much money at DSA as he wants to. But I do fear that this sort of all out ‘public sector should own airport’ stuff will actually be the undoing of devolution. It has to be done in partnership with the airlines, which means following the market not trying to distort it because ‘big runway’ and ‘jobs jobs jobs’, because it really doesn’t work like that.
 
Heathrow of the North? Well think back to 2004, that’s exactly what it was being sold as then, I remember it being mentioned that they could easily build a second runway on the land. But then they realised easyjet couldn’t even get profitable loads on a single outstationed aircraft, aer Lingus franchise partners had on average a handful of passenger's on board, a weekly Toronto flight by Flyglobespan likewise had on occasion forward bookings in the single digits. But it’s going to be Heathrow of the North?

I’m not afraid to admit that I’m a cautious supporter of Burnham, I think he offers hope. Certainly if he makes moves to get us back into the EU he can throw as much money at DSA as he wants to. But I do fear that this sort of all out ‘public sector should own airport’ stuff will actually be the undoing of devolution. It has to be done in partnership with the airlines, which means following the market not trying to distort it because ‘big runway’ and ‘jobs jobs jobs’, because it really doesn’t work like that.
They seem to overlook the simple fact that there isn’t any untapped demand for a short medium haul airport let alone a long haul airport! A fact which is well understood by the airlines!
 
They seem to overlook the simple fact that there isn’t any untapped demand for a short medium haul airport let alone a long haul airport! A fact which is well understood by the airlines!
Yes we’ve established that, they’re hoping for continuation to occur at DSA. I agree, in order for it to work without a slurry of new airline startups then yes they’d have to have airlines consolidating at DSA because 20% of traffic from elsewhere doesn’t add up.

I watched the sky news piece, quite well balanced I thought (hate giving them compliments), the Heathrow North thing was a quip, probably a play on No10 North. Probably not something they’ve come out with as a strategy thankfully. The comparisons to MAG were interesting though, and inherently flawed. I suppose the argument will be ‘in 50 years DSA will be a major airport’. An easy promise to make since people won’t be around to be accountable by then.

I’m expecting more news spin this evening and into tomorrow when the board wave it through, probably no questions asked.
 
Yes we’ve established that, they’re hoping for continuation to occur at DSA. I agree, in order for it to work without a slurry of new airline startups then yes they’d have to have airlines consolidating at DSA because 20% of traffic from elsewhere doesn’t add up.

I watched the sky news piece, quite well balanced I thought (hate giving them compliments), the Heathrow North thing was a quip, probably a play on No10 North. Probably not something they’ve come out with as a strategy thankfully. The comparisons to MAG were interesting though, and inherently flawed. I suppose the argument will be ‘in 50 years DSA will be a major airport’. An easy promise to make since people won’t be around to be accountable by then.

I’m expecting more news spin this evening and into tomorrow when the board wave it through, probably no questions asked.
There is also a BBC report similar to the Sky one but done by everyone’s favourite Look North reporter, who yet again can’t help little quips like Vincent Hodders opinion being that of a “competing airport”. He should have also held John Stricklands warnings in more weight than he actually did. It’s clear that the view of Doncaster is that 130,000 people wanted it open so we will do that at any cost. Less than 10% of the population of South Yorkshire and nowhere near enough to sustain a passenger base.

Not sure how to link it but search Doncaster Sheffield on YouTube and it comes up.
 
There is also a BBC report similar to the Sky one but done by everyone’s favourite Look North reporter, who yet again can’t help little quips like Vincent Hodders opinion being that of a “competing airport”. He should have also held John Stricklands warnings in more weight than he actually did. It’s clear that the view of Doncaster is that 130,000 people wanted it open so we will do that at any cost. Less than 10% of the population of South Yorkshire and nowhere near enough to sustain a passenger base.

Not sure how to link it but search Doncaster Sheffield on YouTube and it comes up.
Well have to just get used to this BS as it’s basically history repeating itself. Last time it was Peel appointed people, this time it’s politicians. What will be interesting to see is if this fanciful nonsense carries on into tomorrow or whether there’s a more cautious narrative over risk, responsibility etc.

At least when it was Peel there was a lot of unknowns.
 
If he continues to allege publicly that Vince Hodder is in collusion with John Strickland, then he could be in a different kind of trouble, facing a slander case. He often skates on thin ice with his accusations, many of which include Vince Hodder who according to him, is also in bed with the Yorkshire Post and YEP (quite funny given we tend to think both, historically, have been pro DSA and anti LBA)!
I've stopped looking at that page - wildly unbalanced!

Well have to just get used to this BS as it’s basically history repeating itself. Last time it was Peel appointed people, this time it’s politicians. What will be interesting to see is if this fanciful nonsense carries on into tomorrow or whether there’s a more cautious narrative over risk, responsibility etc.

At least when it was Peel there was a lot of unknowns.
You know - I think Coppard knows exactly what the risk are in spite of the BS - he's had enough due diligence advice which will be 'noted' but otherwise ignored and that this is a repeat performance of the Peel debacle but he is in too deep and politically needs to save CDC from oblivion. I wonder whether he has much choice - after all as has already been alluded to on here the folk taking these decisions will probably not be around to shovel the sh+t back into the bucket in 10 years time.
 
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I've stopped looking at that page - wildly unbalanced!


You know - I think Coppard knows exactly what the risk are in spite of the BS - he's had enough due diligence advice which will be 'noted' but otherwise ignored and that this is a repeat performance of the Peel debacle but he is in too deep and politically needs to save CDC from oblivion. I wonder whether he has much choice - after all as has already been alluded to on here the folk taking these decisions will probably not be around to shovel the sh+t back into the bucket in 10 years time.
Well a lot of the BS on that page is coming from a former ramp worker at DSA who transferred to LBA (Swissport) when DSA closed with a brief spell at Jet2. He’s posting updates that basically say SYMCA now own DSA. For a start this is false until such time that it’s signed off and agreed by the Peel Board as Coppard himself accepts there’s still a bit to do there, but I’ve no doubt that will go through. The unanimous support was a formality, Coppard knew he had the support over a week ago, hence going to the press last Monday.

I do think he’s been pushed into a corner. This wasn’t his perfect scenario, this was the last option to prevent the runway from being broken up and sold for hardcore. He said himself that Teesside is a caution for what can happen when airports come into public ownership, yet now he’s using it as an example (though holding short from actually naming it!) of why these projects are a success for devolution.

There has been no acknowledgement of why it failed before, no confirmation that anything has fundamentally changed. He says they’ll have people who know what they’re doing in charge, but I’d question why Foster is still there in that case. He claims it’s a great deal for the tax payer but won’t tell us what that deal actually is, and he seems to have, like you say, acknowledged the risk as if it’s just a tick box exercise.

I wonder if industry might come out now and make some of its own public statements. My feeling is that they’ll maintain silence on the matter, I know there’ll be people keen to arrange more training flight agreements. I somehow doubt people like foster will know the difference 🤦🏻
 
Well have to just get used to this BS as it’s basically history repeating itself. Last time it was Peel appointed people, this time it’s politicians. What will be interesting to see is if this fanciful nonsense carries on into tomorrow or whether there’s a more cautious narrative over risk, responsibility etc.

At least when it was Peel there was a lot of unknowns.
I’m certain it will carry on. I’ve spotted another batch of recruits including a new Head of Landside and Customer Experience. Someone who will have very little to do until 2028 at the earliest.

If anyone wanted another reason why this will fail, it’ll be down to staff force bloat which the public sector is renowned for. Looks like it will be the same at DSA. No control of costs and no income = failure.
 
I’m certain it will carry on. I’ve spotted another batch of recruits including a new Head of Landside and Customer Experience. Someone who will have very little to do until 2028 at the earliest.

If anyone wanted another reason why this will fail, it’ll be down to staff force bloat which the public sector is renowned for. Looks like it will be the same at DSA. No control of costs and no income = failure.
Well the recruitment is coming quite fast now as promoted by Save DSA. I notice Coppard is to host a live Q&A on the matter, but I’ve also seen on his Facebook post with a letter to South Yorkshire that the comments overwhelmingly cynical and asking questions of him. Strangely he’s not replied to any that I can see, what he usually does is say ‘are you coming to the Q&A?’. There’s a clear reason for this, and this is because he doesn’t want to tie himself to written statements made. The letter itself is a piece of fanciful wordplay which might sound good to supporters, but doesn’t answer any questions whatsoever. I’d go so far to say it actually raises more questions.

He’s claimed in a FAQ video he recorded that they’ll be appointing people who know what they’re doing. I do wonder where MAI have gone, they seem to be MIA! I’m sure Foster and Hinchley will have reported back many well wishes from Routes 2026, evidently the same couldn’t be said for Routes 2025 where MAI were representing..

It’s becoming clear that they’re now prepared to plough more money into this scheme because they think doing so will eventually get them the answers they want, without actually having a clear strategy or market tested plan to achieve it. The additional loan facility announced at yesterdays Autumn Budget, using DSA as an example of the types of projects that could benefit from it, sets a dangerous precedent that in my view will be the undoing of devolution in the years to come.

The public want passenger flights. What happens if/when they learn they can’t get them? The similarities with Ciudad Real then become even more striking as that airport has abandoned passenger flights altogether in favour of MRO, Specialist Aviation and storage. Another project that was built using public money for which there was no identified demand. Meanwhile airlines will continue to allocate aircraft to airports outside of the Yorkshire and Humber region.
 
Well, with a publicly owned DSA 2 using public money to try to prise airlines away from those that are privately owned, especially LBA, it would appear that they may yet find that doing so is not allowed, as Bristol Airport have been granted leave to appeal to the Appeals Court after losing their case against Cardiff Airport earlier this year.


 
Well, with a publicly owned DSA 2 using public money to try to prise airlines away from those that are privately owned, especially LBA, it would appear that they may yet find that doing so is not allowed, as Bristol Airport have been granted leave to appeal to the Appeals Court after losing their case against Cardiff Airport earlier this year.


The court of appeal clearly thinks there might be something to answer here. The government has relaxed the subsidy control laws because they were concerned it might restrict ‘growth’, but commercial aviation is an interesting test of this law. Unlike other forms of transport, no region has a right to air services, airlines have to operate on a principle of allocating their high unit cost assets to maximise profitability. So for instance DSA might try to attract t easyjet to base there, this is fine as they currently do not operate from anywhere nearby apart from MAN. However they will probably also try to get Ryanair and jet2 to operate from there too, which they’d have to prove has no impact on the services at LBA and EMA. I’m not convinced of this. So if say Ryanair decide they’d rather be at DSA because the subsidies are better, that would be a net loss to a private business in favour of a publicly subsidised one.

The situation at Cardiff is different to DSA, but a finding in favour of BRS could pose fresh challenges for DSA.

Note now that EMA are recruiting for head of cargo development. They want to reach 500,000 tonnes by 2030. A subtle warning shot perhaps.
 
The court of appeal clearly thinks there might be something to answer here. The government has relaxed the subsidy control laws because they were concerned it might restrict ‘growth’, but commercial aviation is an interesting test of this law. Unlike other forms of transport, no region has a right to air services, airlines have to operate on a principle of allocating their high unit cost assets to maximise profitability. So for instance DSA might try to attract t easyjet to base there, this is fine as they currently do not operate from anywhere nearby apart from MAN. However they will probably also try to get Ryanair and jet2 to operate from there too, which they’d have to prove has no impact on the services at LBA and EMA. I’m not convinced of this. So if say Ryanair decide they’d rather be at DSA because the subsidies are better, that would be a net loss to a private business in favour of a publicly subsidised one.

The situation at Cardiff is different to DSA, but a finding in favour of BRS could pose fresh challenges for DSA.

Note now that EMA are recruiting for head of cargo development. They want to reach 500,000 tonnes by 2030. A subtle warning shot perhaps.
A bit more background to the Bristol appeal here. Confirms that for an application to appeal to be granted it must have “a real prospect of success”. https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.c...subsidy-control-case-heads-to-court-of-appeal
Few interesting point - the support of an ailing/failing business (sounds familiar) and the EU political angle….
I’m seem to recollect from a quick read of the Board pack which went to this week SYMC some concern about a potential legal challenge….Suspect this news will make the crystallisation of that risk now more then likely……
 
A bit more background to the Bristol appeal here. Confirms that for an application to appeal to be granted it must have “a real prospect of success”. https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.c...subsidy-control-case-heads-to-court-of-appeal
Few interesting point - the support of an ailing/failing business (sounds familiar) and the EU political angle….
I’m seem to recollect from a quick read of the Board pack which went to this week SYMC some concern about a potential legal challenge….Suspect this news will make the crystallisation of that risk now more then likely……
I think the interesting bit now is what the Court of Appeal might actually change.

The CAT effectively gave public authorities considerable latitude, provided they could demonstrate that they had considered the subsidy principles and the effect on competition. The fact all six grounds are now being allowed to proceed suggests that approach is at least open to challenge.

For DSA this could become important. Public money can reopen the airport and support FlyDoncaster, but the airline capacity still has to come from somewhere. If substantial incentives are eventually needed to persuade Ryanair, Jet2 or others to move aircraft or capacity from established neighbouring airports, then the question of competitive distortion becomes very real.

Cardiff and DSA are obviously different cases, but a Bristol victory could move the goalposts considerably. SYMCA themselves already recognise the possibility of a legal challenge over public subsidy as a risk to the project, so I’d be watching this one very closely.
 

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Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man.... Landing is the first!
i must be a lunatic. Friday 25th Sept will see me doing a daytrip that involves me leaving my flat in Manchester at 1am and not getting back home until after midnight. All because I'm doing a Loch Ness and Scottish Highlands trip.... out of Glasgow
For some weird reason, my days off work tend to involve being out of my flat by 5am and not getting back until 10pm. Back to work and the regular "fix" of 7.40am to 7.15pm hours
Heatwave Mk2 next week?
Some explosive weather build-ups currently in the North of England. What is it like where you are?

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