A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

[Rob c DSA]

If we start going down the route of DSA only has 15 or so departures a day we could start a very big argument for closing most the regional airports on our shores bar the obvious one's, DSA certainly isn't the worst commercial airport in the land different airports have different owners different portfolio's different types of operation bar commercial flights the likes of EMA, LBA, Liverpool and Newcastle are higher up the tree and are a different kettle of fish but surely the argument spans the length and breadth of the UK below those sized airport in regards to viability and profit/loss. We have seen the likes of Blackpool and Coventry close neither anywhere near the size of DSA forget the money side for a moment or who own these airports you close an airport the size of DSA what next Exeter or Bournemouth? Does Belfast need two airports? what about Prestwick not to mention Dundee the list is endless add as you please really.

We all know what these airport masterplans look like bullish forecasts for the future and such but take time to look at Peel's latest one for DSA 2018-2037 everything about the planned closure has come about very quickly after that masterplan was put forward Peel at some point have tried and failed and failed in spectacular fashion however in recent times Peel have tried to fail that will be a masterplan they certainly won't have failed with come October.

 

[Aviador]

Questions will start being asked and the money pot will dry up eventually if the airport is brought back into public ownership. Also they can't spiel on about airports being bad for the environment in Leeds and other airports but then do the oppose for airports like Teesside or Doncaster. Yet again a classic case of politicians using airports for their own political gain.

 

[pug]

Questions will start being asked and the money pot will dry up eventually if the airport is brought back into public ownership. Also they can't spiel on about airports being bad for the environment in Leeds and other airports but then do the oppose for airports like Teesside or Doncaster. Yet again a classic case of politicians using airports for their own political gain.

Indeed, they have to be forced to accept that they can’t manipulate the market, and so growth must be focussed at the airports where airlines want to fly from.

I had tried to post a reply to Rob but seems my post hasn’t worked. Mods please edit.

Aviador: - You quoted him correctly but you didn't include a response. If you are using a mobile device it maybe more difficult to use this function.

 

[Aviador]

Indeed, they have to be forced to accept that they can’t manipulate the market, and so growth must be focussed at the airports where airlines want to fly from.

It's not so much about where airlines want to fly either really. It's all about where the customers want to fly from. Do you honestly think any airline would really choose to fly from say London City or Leeds Bradford. They're fair from ideal places to fly into but it's where their customers are.

 

[pug]

It's not so much about where airlines want to fly either really. It's all about where the customers want to fly from. Do you honestly think any airline would really choose to fly from say London City or Leeds Bradford. They're fair from ideal places to fly into but it's where their customers are.

Ultimately yes that’s correct, but the airlines don’t want to fly from an airport that cannot attract sufficient passengers to support their services. So as inadequate the facilities at LBA might be when compared to DSA, it’s where the demand is, and therefore os where growth and improvements should be focussed. Hence my dismay at our local politicians and local government officials blocking any attempts by LBA to provide facilities for for its operations, whilst seemingly trying to encourage growth and an airport that has proven insufficient demand.

 

[rmac]

Spot on Pug! Totally agree.

 

[Seasider]

Ultimately yes that’s correct, but the airlines don’t want to fly from an airport that cannot attract sufficient passengers to support their services. So as inadequate the facilities at LBA might be when compared to DSA, it’s where the demand is, and therefore os where growth and improvements should be focussed. Hence my dismay at our local politicians and local government officials blocking any attempts by LBA to provide facilities for for its operations, whilst seemingly trying to encourage growth and an airport that has proven insufficient demand.

You've hit he nail on the head exactly. That's what happens when politicians get involved.

 

[pug]

Doncaster Sheffield Airport owner John Whittaker responds over its future and it’s ‘not positive’

Don Valley MP Nick Fletcher has said recent correspondence with the owner of Doncaster Sheffield Airport was ‘not positive’.

www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk

Seems there was an update on this yesterday, with the Peel big cheese himself being quoted as saying that it’s just not viable.

I would like to see independent scrutiny of this. I do suspect this is the case, I really don’t believe Peel were playing a long game when they opened the airport. I do believe that it has failed to match the success envisioned, primarily due to lack of sufficient local support, but also on the back of established airports opening the flood gates to the low-cost airlines just prior to the airport opening.

What I think the like of Nick Fletcher and Oliver Coppard need to do is themselves appoint an aviation consultancy company to make an unbiased appraisal of the viability of the site. It’s all well and good drumming up local support, but that just proves a useful tool for further Peel obfuscation.

I’ve heard that a ‘renewable energy farm’ has been planned and approved at one end of the runway, but have yet to gain actual citation of this.

 

[White Heather]

Doncaster Sheffield Airport owner John Whittaker responds over its future and it’s ‘not positive’

Don Valley MP Nick Fletcher has said recent correspondence with the owner of Doncaster Sheffield Airport was ‘not positive’.

www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk

Seems there was an update on this yesterday, with the Peel big cheese himself being quoted as saying that it’s just not viable.

I would like to see independent scrutiny of this. I do suspect this is the case, I really don’t believe Peel were playing a long game when they opened the airport. I do believe that it has failed to match the success envisioned, primarily due to lack of sufficient local support, but also on the back of established airports opening the flood gates to the low-cost airlines just prior to the airport opening.

What I think the like of Nick Fletcher and Oliver Coppard need to do is themselves appoint an aviation consultancy company to make an unbiased appraisal of the viability of the site. It’s all well and good drumming up local support, but that just proves a useful tool for further Peel obfuscation.

I’ve heard that a ‘renewable energy farm’ has been planned and approved at one end of the runway, but have yet to gain actual citation of this.

But while this unbiased appraisal is going on, (and bear in mind such an appraisal would require information on airport accounts which to date Peel have not been willing to make available, even to secure a loan from the local authorities), the future of the airport remains at best unclear. Meanwhile, it's one based operator (TUi) and it's one non based regular user (Wizz) dont know whether there's an airport to serve or not from November. Sooner or later the uncertainty will result in them withdrawing, which would probably be the final nail in DSAs coffin. There isn't time for protracted, long drawn out studies. The odds are that such a study would, in any case, confirm what Peel have said and what many have come to realise. That DSA is never going to be attract the airlines or passengers to justify its existence, and it remains an annual loss waiting to happen as per the last 17 years.
So, whatever they do, they need to do it very quickly or it will be too late. In 3 months time, commercial flights at DSA may be about to end and 3 months is not long to employ specialist consultants, do the investigation, get a report, consider its findings, and find then implement a solution. Peel will need to agree to extend their deadlines and absorb even greater losses through the winter, including heating and power in a vastly under-used terminal. It's hard to see them doing so unless the Mayor stumps up the cash to cover their losses.

 

[pug]

But while this unbiased appraisal is going on, (and bear in mind such an appraisal would require information on airport accounts which to date Peel have not been willing to make available, even to secure a loan from the local authorities), the future of the airport remains at best unclear. Meanwhile, it's one based operator (TUi) and it's one non based regular user (Wizz) dont know whether there's an airport to serve or not from November. Sooner or later the uncertainty will result in them withdrawing, which would probably be the final nail in DSAs coffin. There isn't time for protracted, long drawn out studies. The odds are that such a study would, in any case, confirm what Peel have said and what many have come to realise. That DSA is never going to be attract the airlines or passengers to justify its existence, and it remains an annual loss waiting to happen as per the last 17 years.
So, whatever they do, they need to do it very quickly or it will be too late. In 3 months time, commercial flights at DSA may be about to end and 3 months is not long to employ specialist consultants, do the investigation, get a report, consider its findings, and find then implement a solution. Peel will need to agree to extend their deadlines and absorb even greater losses through the winter, including heating and power in a vastly under-used terminal. It's hard to see them doing so unless the Mayor stumps up the cash to cover their losses.

I agree entirely - but setting out how I think the local MP’s, Councillors and regional authorities should be approaching this if they want the airport to remain open.

Would be difficult to analyse financially accurately, and it would take a lot more time than 3 months, however it would appear that Peel are open to extending the ‘consultation’ period. What an independent appraisal could show however is whether there really is the demand. I believe advanced ticket tracing information is available from the CAA. All airline operators should be canvassed for their views, easyJet in particular as they ran an outstation operation from there for a few months before pulling the plug. They could approach Jet2, KLM etc.

I believe such an appraisal would tell them what they don’t want to hear. Therefore I don’t believe they will go down that route. It’s far easier to play the good guy in the face of local popular opinion favouring keeping the airport open. No idea where the high landing fees reason comes from, but it’s prevalent on social media, and it’s something I believe to be wholly false.

 

[Rob c DSA]

And still many of the LBA supporters continue to make out DSA is just a complete failure when the owners have clearly played a part.

 

[A400]

And still many of the LBA supporters continue to make out DSA is just a complete failure when the owners have clearly played a part.

Which LBA supporters would that be? As I’ve seen nothing suggesting this. Once again I’m seeing this nonsense of rivalry airports battle.

The only people to blame are peel.

 

[pug]

And still many of the LBA supporters continue to make out DSA is just a complete failure when the owners have clearly played a part.

It’s not clear though, is it. As has been said, the airport were incentivising airlines to move across since before it even opened. They were successful in tempting TUI as their flagship operator, many others have been given unbeatable deals to set up and each one has failed. Wizz were the final nail in the coffin, just not enough support so they pulled the plug,

That will come out, regardless. Whether you hear that from the South Yorkshire public officials is another matter.

 

[White Heather]

And still many of the LBA supporters continue to make out DSA is just a complete failure when the owners have clearly played a part.

Yes the owners may have played a part, but the owners also created DSA. Without Peel the airport would never have existed. If you create something out of nothing and it doesn't work, you have the right to try and recover the situation by whatever means.

As for being an LBA supporter, yes I am. In my view, DSA wasn't required, and could only succeed by diverting traffic from other neighbouring airports. I wasn't happy it was given approval and even less happy that DSA offered a ridiculous deal to TUi resulting in them closing the LBA base, nor was I happy they did the same with Flybe when LBA were expecting Flybe to announce a base at LBA. If you offer airlines crazy deals, then expect them to leave when the deals terminate unless the passenger numbers are exceptional. But they weren't.

So what's happening now doesn't come as a shock to me, but LBA recovered from the loss of TUi and Flybe and there's room for both airports in Yorkshire, but it appears that isn't going to happen for much longer. In the end, DSAs location proved to be it's undoing. Frankly it's not central enough for a Yorkshire airport. It's nearly in Nottinghamshire! It's far too far from parts of West and North Yorkshire, and not even that close to Sheffield. Ultimately it's failed to hold on to the airlines that could have established DSA. Peel attracted the likes of easyJet, Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Flybe and Wizz UK etc, but how did they do it? They all left again after a while, so there has to be an underlying factor that has resulted in these airlines failing at DSA.

I am not convinced that DSA management have done anything untoward other than try to attract airlines through unsustainable subsidies which they couldn't maintain long term.

Right now, I feel for the people who work at DSA. The region can and will recover from the loss of the airport, though a city the size of Sheffield really should have an airport. Geographic location makes that difficult though and there's still the fact that the area has four airports surrounding it already.

I am certainly not feeling happy at the potential loss of an airport, and it will be a sad day if it does close, but it's had 17 years to claim the title if Yorkshire's No 1 airport (as Peel said it would), and it hasn't even come close. The reasons for that are clear enough and the aviation industry predicted this outcome at the public inquiry all those years ago.

I don't see LBA gaining from this at all. The gain will be at MAN (TUi) and LPL (Wizz). Until the LBA terminal extension is completed, probably in 2025, there isn't the capacity anyway for LBA to absorb any of the traffic that might be lost at DSA. It's already packed to the rafters with what we have.

 

[Rob c DSA]

But the owners only created the airport for one thing they planned this all along I don't believe it was a back up plan at all what they now have planned they may have made more of a go of things at Liverpool but this is the third time they've run an airport into the ground with the end game being the same objective they had to bide their time but Covid provided the perfect storm now with other combining factor's they have decided to go for the end game.

It appears in some quarters questions were being asked back in 2019/2020 about DSA's future and more should be done to safeguard it.

I don't blame any LBA supporter for having a gripe with DSA being built we all know the history on should it or shouldn't it have been built but like White Heather says South Yorkshire should have an airport forget anything else for a moment could you imagine not having an airport in West Yorkshire the size of the region of course not be it an airport serving a million passengers a year or 10 million a year. Yeah we all know you wouldn't put an airport in South Yorkshire where it is if possible like you wouldn't have LBA where it is in an ideal world but we don't live in an ideal world.

750 million people live in Europe, South Yorkshire will again become the largest region on the continent without an airport. That can't be right be it you come from South or West Yorkshire or London it's a disgrace come on Dundee has an airport and I don't mean that in a funny way at all.

Peel have had the chance to make a better fist of things. Like I said the other day other airports are losing money but serving the region some a nation they serve, South Yorkshire deserves and should have an airport.

The amount of questions that could be asked of Peel's running and motives regarding DSA is endless.

We could go through the airlines that DSA has had and why things failed but in regards to easyJet operations at DSA they were never ideal the way it was set up. We don't know the full story regards to Wizz UK but I would guess Peel have played a part. Was Flybe the right fit for DSA probably not.

I honestly don't think we'd be seeing a debate on here if it was Norwich or Inverness on the verge of closure the fact is South Yorkshire should of had an airport many years before Sheffield City was built and should have one now and into the next decade and after that.

I honestly don't think it matters that DSA has many other airports around it different airports have different business models would you make the argument Heathrow handles cargo so Luton or Stansted doesn't need to EMA handles cargo DSA does not as much as it could but that's a different story my home airport in my mind deserves better than Peel it deserves a future it deserves to represent and serve the county of South Yorkshire.

Save DSA

 

[pug]

But the owners only created the airport for one thing they planned this all along I don't believe it was a back up plan at all what they now have planned they may have made more of a go of things at Liverpool but this is the third time they've run an airport into the ground with the end game being the same objective they had to bide their time but Covid provided the perfect storm now with other combining factor's they have decided to go for the end game.

It appears in some quarters questions were being asked back in 2019/2020 about DSA's future and more should be done to safeguard it.

I don't blame any LBA supporter for having a gripe with DSA being built we all know the history on should it or shouldn't it have been built but like White Heather says South Yorkshire should have an airport forget anything else for a moment could you imagine not having an airport in West Yorkshire the size of the region of course not be it an airport serving a million passengers a year or 10 million a year. Yeah we all know you wouldn't put an airport in South Yorkshire where it is if possible like you wouldn't have LBA where it is in an ideal world but we don't live in an ideal world.

750 million people live in Europe, South Yorkshire will again become the largest region on the continent without an airport. That can't be right be it you come from South or West Yorkshire or London it's a disgrace come on Dundee has an airport and I don't mean that in a funny way at all.

Peel have had the chance to make a better fist of things. Like I said the other day other airports are losing money but serving the region some a nation they serve, South Yorkshire deserves and should have an airport.

The amount of questions that could be asked of Peel's running and motives regarding DSA is endless.

We could go through the airlines that DSA has had and why things failed but in regards to easyJet operations at DSA they were never ideal the way it was set up. We don't know the full story regards to Wizz UK but I would guess Peel have played a part. Was Flybe the right fit for DSA probably not.

I honestly don't think we'd be seeing a debate on here if it was Norwich or Inverness on the verge of closure the fact is South Yorkshire should of had an airport many years before Sheffield City was built and should have one now and into the next decade and after that.

I honestly don't think it matters that DSA has many other airports around it different airports have different business models would you make the argument Heathrow handles cargo so Luton or Stansted doesn't need to EMA handles cargo DSA does not as much as it could but that's a different story my home airport in my mind deserves better than Peel it deserves a future it deserves to represent and serve the county of South Yorkshire.

Save DSA

With respect Rob, I’m not sure how long you’ve been following this but all that’s getting raised now about Peel was raised many years ago and rubbished by all the DSA locals as they desperately wanted an airport. It’s always been in their back pocket should things not work out as planned. They haven’t.

You’re again trying to compare airports, like apples and oranges. DSA was built with high volumes of annual passengers in mind. The cost of manpower and energy alone will be huge in comparison to other, smaller setups. Simply it’s siphoning money, the only way to stem this would be to mothball the terminal and most of the staff, or close it altogether. You can preach all you want about why the easyjet services weren’t ideal, but they were a sign of easyjet dipping their toes in and quickly removing them before they got burnt. That has happened with all airlines attempting routes from DSA bar TUI and the Wizz Eastern European services.

Whilst I can appreciate your enthusiasm, that post turned into a bit of a generic knee jerk rabble much like is being seen all over Facebook.

So just who should subsidise this loss leader?

 

[Rob c DSA]

With respect Rob, I’m not sure how long you’ve been following this but all that’s getting raised now about Peel was raised many years ago and rubbished by all the DSA locals as they desperately wanted an airport. It’s always been in their back pocket should things not work out as planned. They haven’t.

You’re again trying to compare airports, like apples and oranges. DSA was built with high volumes of annual passengers in mind. The cost of manpower and energy alone will be huge in comparison to other, smaller setups. Simply it’s siphoning money, the only way to stem this would be to mothball the terminal and most of the staff, or close it altogether. You can preach all you want about why the easyjet services weren’t ideal, but they were a sign of easyjet dipping their toes in and quickly removing them before they got burnt. That has happened with all airlines attempting routes from DSA bar TUI and the Wizz Eastern European services.

Whilst I can appreciate your enthusiasm, that post turned into a bit of a generic knee jerk rabble much like is being seen all over Facebook.

So just who should subsidise this loss leader?

Isn't plan A mothball the terminal but it still leaves 2 Excel, NPAS and the flying schools they are still going to have costs to carry on that operation alone due to the nature of operations by the above which would still have to be a 24 hour operation yes they cut costs by a bundle but aren't they tied to aviation activities on the site at least at the present time.

The situation at Southend will be similar to DSA in regards to the terminal cost other airports are going to be in a similar situation yes I get the point on the terminal at DSA it is larger than your average regional airport is it too much to say we could be heading for a meltdown in the sector on our shores and DSA may not be the only airport to get the chop.

I'm not saying anyone should subsidise the airport we can see what is going on at Teesside my argument is with how Peel have gone about things they've played a part in losing more money than they would by operating the way they have. They have treated the long serving staff with contempt they should of gone about this in a far better way I know it's easy to say but if they'd have been honest they wouldn't be getting the flack they are it's easy to say they can do what they want but they've gone about very badly in my opinion.

 

[pug]

Isn't plan A mothball the terminal but it still leaves 2 Excel, NPAS and the flying schools they are still going to have costs to carry on that operation alone due to the nature of operations by the above which would still have to be a 24 hour operation yes they cut costs by a bundle but aren't they tied to aviation activities on the site at least at the present time.

The situation at Southend will be similar to DSA in regards to the terminal cost other airports are going to be in a similar situation yes I get the point on the terminal at DSA it is larger than your average regional airport is it too much to say we could be heading for a meltdown in the sector on our shores and DSA may not be the only airport to get the chop.

I'm not saying anyone should subsidise the airport we can see what is going on at Teesside my argument is with how Peel have gone about things they've played a part in losing more money than they would by operating the way they have. They have treated the long serving staff with contempt they should of gone about this in a far better way I know it's easy to say but if they'd have been honest they wouldn't be getting the flack they are it's easy to say they can do what they want but they've gone about very badly in my opinion.

No idea what the plan is at all, never mind a plan A, but I expect that any closure plan would need a lead in time for the current commitments such as NPAS and 2Excel. Yes they may require 24 hour access but SAR at HUY are a 24 hour operation and the airport isn’t.

Again dredging up other airports. Southend should be a cautionary tale in what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket. However, they have established non passenger operations and business on site that keep the place going.

How have Peel played a part in the airport losing money? Just what do you think they’ve done? I don’t think you understand how the business works.. You do realise that they threw lots of financial support to the guys and girls in charge of running the airport - right up until Wizzair started dilly dallying with the number of based aircraft they had planned to base at DSA. At one point they wanted to base 5 aircraft, which spurred the expansion of the terminal. Once they started getting itchy feet the expansion was halted, the possibility of the airport in reaching critical mass once again in doubt, long serving senior executives at the airport were most likely tipped off and paid off early.. The beginning of the end was a few months ago, not years ago! Wizz we’re the one chance of the airport actually becoming sustainable with large scale expansion, where others failed.

The people of South Yorkshire only have theirselves to blame by continuing to travel to MAN, EMA and LBA whenever an airline tried to serve them from their local airport. I don’t see how any other owner could produce different results short of heavily subsidising the likes of easyjet and Ryanair to open large bases at a huge cost. On top of the current overheads, how would this ever be viable?

The biggest travesty in all of this was the loss of Sheffield City Airport, I can’t help but think what even a fraction of the cost of DSA could have done had it been invested there instead.

 

[Rob c DSA]

No idea what the plan is at all, never mind a plan A, but I expect that any closure plan would need a lead in time for the current commitments such as NPAS and 2Excel. Yes they may require 24 hour access but SAR at HUY are a 24 hour operation and the airport isn’t.

Again dredging up other airports. Southend should be a cautionary tale in what happens when you put all your eggs in one basket. However, they have established non passenger operations and business on site that keep the place going.

How have Peel played a part in the airport losing money? Just what do you think they’ve done? I don’t think you understand how the business works.. You do realise that they threw lots of financial support to the guys and girls in charge of running the airport - right up until Wizzair started dilly dallying with the number of based aircraft they had planned to base at DSA. At one point they wanted to base 5 aircraft, which spurred the expansion of the terminal. Once they started getting itchy feet the expansion was halted, the possibility of the airport in reaching critical mass once again in doubt, long serving senior executives at the airport were most likely tipped off and paid off early.. The beginning of the end was a few months ago, not years ago! Wizz we’re the one chance of the airport actually becoming sustainable with large scale expansion, where others failed.

The people of South Yorkshire only have theirselves to blame by continuing to travel to MAN, EMA and LBA whenever an airline tried to serve them from their local airport. I don’t see how any other owner could produce different results short of heavily subsidising the likes of easyjet and Ryanair to open large bases at a huge cost. On top of the current overheads, how would this ever be viable?

The biggest travesty in all of this was the loss of Sheffield City Airport, I can’t help but think what even a fraction of the cost of DSA could have done had it been invested there instead.

So didn't DSA do a Southend didn't they put everything on Wizz being a success did they not themselves decide to pull the plug on another potential deal with another airline who knows.

Do we know it was 5 based units Wizz planned to operate did that figure change at some point whatever the plan was was it never got started was Lisbon ever a realistic destination never mind Eindhoven who came up with those mad cap ideas I am not blaming Peel for that Wizz have form with these odd looking route pairings for them to then head South however that can be said for other loco's. Did DSA not want to speculate to accumulate in this case in regards to another carrier. Playing devils advocate is it then possible Peel were ring fencing ops for TUI and Wizz at points of the airports existence.

Come on it's not Joe public's fault people go where it's cheapest South Yorkshire folk more than most your not going to fly out of DSA if you can get the same deal hundreds of pounds cheaper and I mean hundreds and yes I have managed it flying from Gatwick and Stansted not DSA or anywhere local at a significant saving.

 

[pug]

So didn't DSA do a Southend didn't they put everything on Wizz being a success did they not themselves decide to pull the plug on another potential deal with another airline who knows.

Do we know it was 5 based units Wizz planned to operate did that figure change at some point whatever the plan was was it never got started was Lisbon ever a realistic destination never mind Eindhoven who came up with those mad cap ideas I am not blaming Peel for that Wizz have form with these odd looking route pairings for them to then head South however that can be said for other loco's. Did DSA not want to speculate to accumulate in this case in regards to another carrier. Playing devils advocate is it then possible Peel were ring fencing ops for TUI and Wizz at points of the airports existence.

Come on it's not Joe public's fault people go where it's cheapest South Yorkshire folk more than most your not going to fly out of DSA if you can get the same deal hundreds of pounds cheaper and I mean hundreds and yes I have managed it flying from Gatwick and Stansted not DSA or anywhere local at a significant saving.

No idea whether it’s true or not that they rejected another airline. Maybe so, but it may have been to protect current business interests. It wouldn’t have been Peel rejecting them it would have been the airport management themselves.

It is wholly the responsibility of those shouting the loudest to support the flights when they are on offer. Airlines offer a highly perishable product, that is once a seat goes empty it’s gone, you can’t sell it at bargain prices to fill it after the fact. With that empty seat goes any ancillary revenue which the airline most likely relies on to make a profit. It’s just not good business to operate from an airport which struggles to attract sufficient passenger numbers to yield enough to break even - this has been the problem all along, typically once they’re gone they’re gone.

Maybe there will be another buyer waiting to bid, maybe the local authorities will try to take it on. Either way, they will find it unsustainable to own and operate, particularly hard to justify too when it doesn’t even serve the local business sector at all.