A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

[pug]

Sadly, but perhaps unsurprisingly, it appears that European Air Cargo have ceased operations and appointed the administrators. Not directly relevant to DSA perhaps, but given the stated ambitions of apparently linking up with cargo to China then it suggests those cracks are starting to appear in the cargo sector too.

It is frustrating as Eusebius says to see them steamrolling ahead with this knowing the risks. I’m afraid to say though that the project has progressed from the councils ignorance into yes men who will be doing anything they can to protect their jobs, including talking up the ‘potential’ of the airport by dangling various carrots to keep the council happy. These same people are unlikely to be held to account either, how does Christian Foster, some w with zero experience in the field, hold his staff to account? Particularly when he thinks there’s a place called Kazerbaijan waiting to be linked up to Doncaster!

I noticed there was a light aircraft at the airport last week, the rather excellent Aerobility Charity. What annoys me about this is that it was clearly being used by FlyDoncaster as a cheap publicity tool to promote inclusivity and accessibility. They are heavily supported by 2Excel. However a PA28 certainly does not need a long runway, doesn’t even need a tarmac one! Very cynical in my view.

 

[Snackbar]

Sadly, but perhaps unsurprisingly, it appears that European Air Cargo have ceased operations and appointed the administrators. Not directly relevant to DSA perhaps, but given the stated ambitions of apparently linking up with cargo to China then it suggests those cracks are starting to appear in the cargo sector too.

It is frustrating as Eusebius says to see them steamrolling ahead with this knowing the risks. I’m afraid to say though that the project has progressed from the councils ignorance into yes men who will be doing anything they can to protect their jobs, including talking up the ‘potential’ of the airport by dangling various carrots to keep the council happy. These same people are unlikely to be held to account either, how does Christian Foster, some w with zero experience in the field, hold his staff to account? Particularly when he thinks there’s a place called Kazerbaijan waiting to be linked up to Doncaster!

I noticed there was a light aircraft at the airport last week, the rather excellent Aerobility Charity. What annoys me about this is that it was clearly being used by FlyDoncaster as a cheap publicity tool to promote inclusivity and accessibility. They are heavily supported by 2Excel. However a PA28 certainly does not need a long runway, doesn’t even need a tarmac one! Very cynical in my view.

A sad day for those employed but I guess a sign of the commercial stresses in the aviation sector at the moment….
Meanwhile Coppard hops around the globe at the tax payers expense and then reports back about how this will all support his pet project….. Of course it will……it’s all obfuscation and deflection from the real issues about that airport. Meanwhile what’s happened to Munich airport group?? Surely they aren’t leaving any negotiations down to Foster? https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.u...s-and-china-talks-over-dsa-re-opening-8656518

 

[Guppy]

A sad day for those employed but I guess a sign of the commercial stresses in the aviation sector at the moment….
Meanwhile Coppard hops around the globe at the tax payers expense and then reports back about how this will all support his pet project….. Of course it will……it’s all obfuscation and deflection from the real issues about that airport. Meanwhile what’s happened to Munich airport group?? Surely they aren’t leaving any negotiations down to Foster? https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.u...s-and-china-talks-over-dsa-re-opening-8656518

Yes back to random places again that are going to do business with us “St Louis, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Virginia, there’s massive opportunity in the States.” 🙄

interesting to see he’s already admitting they have a ceiling on the amount of money to be wasted
“I want the airport to succeed and thrive. I want it to make a load of money for people,” but he added: “We can’t subsidise it forever. It can’t be a blank cheque.
“We’ve got to have a ceiling on the amount of money we can contribute.”

 

[pug]

Yes back to random places again that are going to do business with us “St Louis, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Virginia, there’s massive opportunity in the States.” 🙄

interesting to see he’s already admitting they have a ceiling on the amount of money to be wasted
“I want the airport to succeed and thrive. I want it to make a load of money for people,” but he added: “We can’t subsidise it forever. It can’t be a blank cheque.
“We’ve got to have a ceiling on the amount of money we can contribute.”

He’s only saying that because of the Grant Thornton concerns. It’s placating with words and not actions. However with that said, perhaps these trade missions are indicative of what we were discussing a couple of weeks ago - all not being as rosy as their press releases and social media statements would have people believe. ‘It can’t be a blank cheque’ in this case means the S151 officer still has concerns and is probably ruminating over the Grant Thornton warnings, so they’re scrambling around for private investment instead as Gainshare might not be realised?

 

[Snackbar]

Yes back to random places again that are going to do business with us “St Louis, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Virginia, there’s massive opportunity in the States.” 🙄

interesting to see he’s already admitting they have a ceiling on the amount of money to be wasted
“I want the airport to succeed and thrive. I want it to make a load of money for people,” but he added: “We can’t subsidise it forever. It can’t be a blank cheque.
“We’ve got to have a ceiling on the amount of money we can contribute.”

Coppard seems to live in his own universe oblivious to things going on around him in the real world….He is either blinkered to, or more likely chooses to ignore, the current issues in the aviation industry. Add to that the current mood is the US is the polar opposite to look at any manufacturing opportunities overseas in Doncaster or anywhere else. This isn’t just something recently orchestrated but something Biden was also supportive off…The US is looking to bring these jobs back to the States not export them particularly in the steel and specialised manufacturing industries…..That won’t change whoever is in the White House in a few years time…..

 

[pug]

Coppard seems to live in his own universe oblivious to things going on around him in the real world….He is either blinkered to, or more likely chooses to ignore, the current issues in the aviation industry. Add to that the current mood is the US is the polar opposite to look at any manufacturing opportunities overseas in Doncaster or anywhere else. This isn’t just something recently orchestrated but something Biden was also supportive off…The US is looking to bring these jobs back to the States not export them particularly in the steel and specialised manufacturing industries…..That won’t change whoever is in the White House in a few years time…..

I don’t think he is oblivious, if anything I think he knows exactly the predicament he’s gotten himself into. This is why he goes on these expensive trade missions, to show that he’s doing something. Meanwhile we haven’t heard anything regarding the successful conclusion of lease renegotiation that we are led to believe has been going on since at least August/September last year. We therefore don’t know whether Gainshare will ever be released for the project. Wouldn’t it be much easier for Coppard if one of these trips resulted in the private sector taking on the risk?

I wonder how many millions are squandered on public promises that are, with all information (that we know Coppard has), unviable and highly likely to be high profile failures. Also how much is spent on these excursions which typically prove useless.

 

[Eusebius]

He’s only saying that because of the Grant Thornton concerns. It’s placating with words and not actions. However with that said, perhaps these trade missions are indicative of what we were discussing a couple of weeks ago - all not being as rosy as their press releases and social media statements would have people believe. ‘It can’t be a blank cheque’ in this case means the S151 officer still has concerns and is probably ruminating over the Grant Thornton warnings, so they’re scrambling around for private investment instead as Gainshare might not be realised?

Exactly. Behind the scenes I suspect this already looks like a total car crash, and no one really knows what to do about it. Already we're down to "Chinese investors" and "defence opportunities", which tells us there is zero credible interest from the mainstream aviation sectors that the airport would require to succeed.

I can't claim any inside knowledge but from what I can glean, very little is happening on the site beyond a bit of grass cutting. Getting from where they are now to passenger flights in Easter 2028 looks like a long shot to put it kindly! Behind the scenes, perhaps there's more interest in those off-ramps than they're letting on...

 

[pug]

Exactly. Behind the scenes I suspect this already looks like a total car crash, and no one really knows what to do about it. Already we're down to "Chinese investors" and "defence opportunities", which tells us there is zero credible interest from the mainstream aviation sectors that the airport would require to succeed.

I can't claim any inside knowledge but from what I can glean, very little is happening on the site beyond a bit of grass cutting. Getting from where they are now to passenger flights in Easter 2028 looks like a long shot to put it kindly! Behind the scenes, perhaps there's more interest in those off-ramps than they're letting on...

It would be good to see what actually is being discussed behind the scenes. They’ve always talked it up because they have to, but Coppard is backed into a corner. If he starts openly discussing the problems with the business case then he risks losing the confidence of business and the public, however the longer this goes on the more people will be expecting tangibles like airlines etc. My suspicions haven’t changed, there are problems behind closed doors regarding securing Gainshare release, Peel may be unwilling to renegotiate on certain aspects of the lease that are contentious. The council have agreed to borrow against something that may never exist. I imagine there is internal friction. Meanwhile Grant Thornton keep hammering the point home and the council are acknowledging their concerns whilst carrying on anyway. Seems very precarious.

I bet that airlines are looking at this realistically by cutting out the localist bullshit and reviewing the facts. If it reopened will it still be open in 10 years? If there’s a risk that it won’t then they’ll want some very heavy financial incentives to remove the risk, if any really are interested.

 

[Eusebius]

Grant Thornton keep hammering the point home and the council are acknowledging their concerns whilst carrying on anyway.

I find it worrying that they're allowed to do that. There ought to be some mechanism stopping numbnuts in local councils spaffing millions of pounds of public money away on crackpot projects their own auditor has red rated!

 

[White Heather]

It would be good to see what actually is being discussed behind the scenes. They’ve always talked it up because they have to, but Coppard is backed into a corner. If he starts openly discussing the problems with the business case then he risks losing the confidence of business and the public, however the longer this goes on the more people will be expecting tangibles like airlines etc. My suspicions haven’t changed, there are problems behind closed doors regarding securing Gainshare release, Peel may be unwilling to renegotiate on certain aspects of the lease that are contentious. The council have agreed to borrow against something that may never exist. I imagine there is internal friction. Meanwhile Grant Thornton keep hammering the point home and the council are acknowledging their concerns whilst carrying on anyway. Seems very precarious.

I bet that airlines are looking at this realistically by cutting out the localist bullshit and reviewing the facts. If it reopened will it still be open in 10 years? If there’s a risk that it won’t then they’ll want some very heavy financial incentives to remove the risk, if any really are interested.

A bad situation is only getting worse. WIth the fuel cost/availability crisis, airlines such as Sun Express pulling numerous routes, carriers going into administration ans no clear end in sight. Even if things return to normal by the time DSA actually has airspace, the industry, once again, will be in recovery mode and airlines looking to recover
Insitu rather than risk expansion into airports which have failed before and which undoubtedly are on shaky ground this time around. Setting up to operate at a new airport costs too much to risk another failure of the airport leaving the already damaged airline having to sort out the resultant mess and costs.

The projected passenger numbers have already been revised downwards and I would suggest a further downward revision is a requirement.

 

[Eusebius]

The projected passenger numbers have already been revised downwards and I would suggest a further downward revision is a requirement.

I agree, but they won't willingly admit that they can't even manage a truly pathetic 1.1m passengers a year and 13,000 tonnes of cargo. That's already in "why bother?" territory. Admitting that even that is fantasy would effectively be to admit that they should pack up and go home.

 

[Egyptian King]

@pug How much dies a AANE csbin cost as Doncaster needs to replace all 6 due to vermin and won't disclose cost

 

[White Heather]

@pug How much dies a AANE csbin cost as Doncaster needs to replace all 6 due to vermin and won't disclose cost

What is an AANE cabin?

 

[Egyptian King]

What is an AANE cabin?

six aerodrome air navigation equipment (AANE) cabins, due to vermin also not large enough to house the new equipment needed

 

[pug]

@pug How much dies a AANE csbin cost as Doncaster needs to replace all 6 due to vermin and won't disclose cost

Won’t be more than £500,000 total, probably a fair bit less. Certainly far less expensive than the equipment they’ll be destined to house.

 

[Eusebius]

Won’t be more than £500,000 total, probably a fair bit less. Certainly far less expensive than the equipment they’ll be destined to house.

Story's here:

Six cabins to be replaced at Doncaster Sheffield Airport due to ‘vermin infestation’

Doncaster Council has paid to replace a number of cabins housing essential systems at Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA) following a “vermin infestation”.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Not sure why they're being so shady about it. Although it just re-emphasises that hardly anything is salvageable.

 

[White Heather]

Story's here:

Six cabins to be replaced at Doncaster Sheffield Airport due to ‘vermin infestation’

Doncaster Council has paid to replace a number of cabins housing essential systems at Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA) following a “vermin infestation”.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Not sure why they're being so shady about it. Although it just re-emphasises that hardly anything is salvageable.

Is this another cost that previously was not identified, so pushing the reopening cost further? Either way, it is still yet another committed spend before they have actually agreed a revised lease with Peel and therefore still not guaranteed the SYMCA gainshare funding to ensure reopening.

 

[Snackbar]

Story's here:

Six cabins to be replaced at Doncaster Sheffield Airport due to ‘vermin infestation’

Doncaster Council has paid to replace a number of cabins housing essential systems at Doncaster Sheffield Airport (DSA) following a “vermin infestation”.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Not sure why they're being so shady about it. Although it just re-emphasises that hardly anything is salvageable.

So much for CDC doing full diligence before committing costs to the business case….This is basic and should have been picked up in the survey of the airport they completed before determining the costs for the business case…..Makes one wonder what other costs they’ll uncover if they missed something as basic as this….

 

[radar]

I don’t think the price of replacement equipment cabins will be that much in the grand scheme of things. It’s more that they have become dilapidated and infested in the last two years, presumably through neglect. Which poses a question as to the condition of the other buildings on the site - what other nasty surprises are waiting to be found?

 

[pug]

I don’t think the price of replacement equipment cabins will be that much in the grand scheme of things. It’s more that they have become dilapidated and infested in the last two years, presumably through neglect. Which poses a question as to the condition of the other buildings on the site - what other nasty surprises are waiting to be found?

What’s your take on them recruiting nine trainee ATCOs? Isn’t this quite a significant risk? I understand failure rate can be very high when pursuing certain ratings, up to 50% in some cases. Is this accurate? If so in your opinion have they inadvertently, in the pursuit of political capital, potentially exposed themselves to a risk of a shortfall? I do know they’ll be forced to offer very good training rates to Jet2 etc as per previous to keep the controllers in practice and get them signed off. Further hidden costs.