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- #1,781
Nobody should be "bashing" anybody else. Good constructive debate is what we all enjoy and for the most part F4A provides it.
A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?
- Thread starter mdobuk21
- Start date
White Heather
Elite Pro-Member
Unfortunately, the pro DSA lobby habitually bash LBA at any opportunity, whether weather related, the terminal, or the likes of the TUi runway excursion, (which has now been shown to be nothing to do with LBA or it's runway but a combination of technical fault and pilot error), but those who see the folly of reopening a failed airport at huge public expense to satisfy the ego of a city and regional mayor , and express those views, are shut down by the pro DSA lobby.
The fact is that for DSA mk 2 to succeed, it has to pinch lots of flights and passengers from surrounding airports, and not just LBA. That won't happen, and when it doesn't, it'll be too late. The public money will have been frittered away on a vanity project.
As you say, this forum is about healthy debate. For the most part, that's what we get, and opinions, whether for against, are respected. Sadly, there are the occasions where posters fail to respect opinions and descend into sarcasm and personal insult. They know who they are. The above discussion demonstrates opposing opinions, but with balanced debate and opinions explained politely and justified. Long may that continue.
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- Jan 16, 2009
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Yes and I value Rob DSA and Rabbitfoots input on this thread. I don’t agree with Rabbitfoot a lot of the time but the fact that they’re showing interest in entering the debate is what I think is important. I know I’ve made this a bit of a talking shop/echo chamber but like I says in my last post, I think it’s important have somewhere to blog and/or just vent.
I’m sure we will see the airport reopen now, short of something being pulled up that doesn’t fit, or some partners backing out of the deal. But I remain to be convinced that it will work, or that it won’t be swallowed up by the Gateway East project which, if realised, will have a much bigger impact on jobs and prosperity than an airport will.
- Jan 16, 2009
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- #1,784
Doncaster Sheffield Airport Reopening Flies in the Face of Sustainable Development
Can re-opening Doncaster Sheffield Airport be classed as sustainable? That's what our Green Watch team has investigated.
grantham.sheffield.ac.uk
Ignoring the heavy bias, this article raises some good points.
- Moderator
- #1,786
They have picked up on the fact that DCC are hiding information under "commercial confidentiality" folder. I wonder if they will publish this information for scrutiny once the operator has been announced along with their program for reopening.
- Jan 16, 2009
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- #1,787
I strongly suspect that won’t be announced until after the money has been approved. The SYMCA board will tomorrow decide whether to grant the £3 million requested to complete ‘legal and commercial negotiations’ with the operator and to get the ball rolling with some of the regulatory stuff that needs doing to avoid delays along the line. The remaining £105m will be requested when they have the report from the SAU which, given the findings in favour of CWL, will just be a tick box exercise. I’m not sure if they’ll wait until funding has been approved before they name the operator.
rabbitfoot
Active Member
South Yorkshire’s Mayor, Oliver Coppard, said: “I remain completely committed to reopening Doncaster Sheffield Airport and creating a world leading sustainable aviation hub. That’s why, together with the MCA board, we have authorised the release of £3m for City of Doncaster Council in support of their plans for the airport.
“This money is part of the £138m that South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority have already committed to releasing, subject to the right deal being struck with the right partner.
“DSA and the wider Gateway East site has huge potential to play a leading role in the economic regeneration of South Yorkshire and the North of England, which is why it’s so important we get this right. The deal we sign must offer a secure future for our airport, create growth in the economy, and offer real value for taxpayers.”
“This money is part of the £138m that South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority have already committed to releasing, subject to the right deal being struck with the right partner.
“DSA and the wider Gateway East site has huge potential to play a leading role in the economic regeneration of South Yorkshire and the North of England, which is why it’s so important we get this right. The deal we sign must offer a secure future for our airport, create growth in the economy, and offer real value for taxpayers.”
White Heather
Elite Pro-Member
Quite frankly, a secure future for ANY small regional airport is something that cannot be guaranteed and such statements only serve to show how unaware Coppard seems to be with regard to the industry. We have seen before how events around the world can severely impact aviation as an industry , resulting in airlines and airports going under unless they are in a strong enough position to get through whatever the crisis is. Somehow, I doubt DSA will fall into that category.
rabbitfoot
Active Member
is the last hurdle to get it over the line, the SAU approval?
- Jan 16, 2009
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- #1,791
That will be a formality, they will not attempt to block it based on the precedent they set in response to BRS vs CWL.
Coppard has actually stated that they have to prove that this investment benefits all of the SY tax payers and that basically he’s not providing a blank cheque for it. So there is still work to do as per his post last week.
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- #1,792
You quoted me in your post?
@pug suggested other airlines such as Jet2 should emulate what Tui had done at DSA because it was a huge success for them.
My view differs somewhat. I'm not saying it wasn't a success at all for Tui but I am saying it wasn't anywhere nearly as successful as some people would have us believe.
The point I am making here and the reason why LBA is part of this discussion is because Tui uprouted its LBA base as a commercial decision and moved it to DSA on the basis of a Peel deal.
Tui had DSA and its catchment area to itself. If it was such a runaway success for Tui, it could've gone all guns blazing to re-establish the passenger base it left behind to Jet2 out of LBA when it left there.
The catchment area it left behind chose to change allegiance and swap to Jet2 rather than moving with Tui when it decided to move, this despite all the billboards in Leeds City Centre enticing customers to move to "the new airport for Leeds".
The airline should've had a 10 plus aircraft base at DSA but it didn't. Bsically Tui found a niche for itself. A small market that brought them enough income to make it worthwhile for them, and that's that.
Point to note, unlike the DSA Facebook page everyone talks about, you are allowed an opinion here. It's not sniping or airport bashing, it's called is discussion. That's what forums are for.
GolfFox
Active Member
- Apr 14, 2014
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As has been alluded to - SAU seem likely to approve it based on precedent, the last hurdle is probably finalising a deal acceptable to OC with whoever the operator is likely to be. OC said he would not accept a deal 'at any price' and the numbers at the moment as has been publicly stated in are excess of what CDC envisaged and no private money - again as publicly stated clearly - far too risky at this moment in time for the private sector. I guess the key is what the acceptable number is. The other aspect of course is that so much money has already been spent on this project - dare he pull the plug even if he is not convinced it provides good value for taxpayers????
Finger66
Well-Known Member
If he does pull the plug then he might have to change his name to Oliver Copout
If he was to pull the plug he would be a lot braver than I assume he is I have never been convinced he really backs the idea to reopen the place and who could blame him he has always seemed uneasy with the situation and is stuck in a position he frankly does not want to be in, tbf who could blame him but at the end of the day he's in the role he is and he's got it on his plate the whole things really dragging on and it has got to the point just get on with it and sign it all off and whatever will be will be even if it is a disaster or just put a stop to the whole idea whilst not too much money has been thrown at it in the big scheme of things. The fact that it appears to be going ahead but never crosses the line could mean a bunch of things but the script has been pretty much the same since March it never actual happens June and July passed then September its a huge thing but something somewhere doesn't stack up you can only do so much negotiating and due diligence before get to a point of getting on with it or not.
If an operator can get hold of the place and turn a profit I hope they do get the credit they will deserve if the risks just way too much lets not go through the same scenario again for 5/10/15 years. Some point soon the wheels are going to fall off with constant expansion at some airports its happened before and will happen again and at much bigger airports than DSA how many flights a week can some airports really fill to some of these destintations before casualties appear.
To be fair to OC he has always stated it being the right deal the question for me is is will he sign off a deal he doesn't believe is right surely a right deal should have happened by now???
Some of this comes down to people being held accountable this along with being sensible I feel OC has this weighing on his shoulders where others haven't.
One thing stands out for me why did people start caring at the point they did when hthe airport was dead and buried the airport had been in trouble for a long time people were aware of it but didn't show an interest back then or maybe didn't have the understanding things were so bad I can't put my finger on what stands truer. I am not saying anything should have been done at any point re funding people made the decesions they did the airport lost a lot of money facts are however people sat and listened to ACCM minutes moons ago and didn't even question or take the hint things could get very very ugly no questions asked it appeared just 90 minutes of coffee and cake for some it was spelt out things had to change several years ago way before Peel started the real process of closure. From the outside it appears even the departure of those running the show towars the end was not even questioned in the slightest as they jumped ship just before the ship sunk the real tell tale signs that things were turning ugly.
The likes of Nick Fletcher constantly acting as DSA was his place of worship and Ed Miiliband showing the slightest interest after the lord mayors shows been laughable to say the least. The story rumbles on 2 years have passed since closure I don't think OC would mind if it rumbled on another two years as long as it rumbled very quietly in the background away from his office. The whole thing at present stands as a shambles on many peoples shoulders.
- Jan 16, 2009
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I’ve had a listen to the SYMCA meeting today, well for the DSA bit.
It’s a shame they got Ros Jones talking, she doesn’t really have a way with words unfortunately. Not did the other two speakers really inspire much either. Coppard actually sounded quite positive but doesn’t appear to have changed his stance that whatever happens they have to protect the investment, and I think that was his usual caution.
He said right at the beginning and throughout that he doesn’t believe the public sector should be running airports, I saw him like a post on his Facebook years ago right at the beginning of this that questioned the viability of the airport. The largest authority in the MCA has banned public advertisement of air travel (though admittedly the SCC support CDC in the project).
What is clear is that despite the announcement last week that an operator has been identified, it suggests that yes, the council have indeed selected their preferred operator, but has the preferred operator agreed the terms within which they will operate the airport? The legal and commercial negotiations that still need to be completed could in theory throw some curve balls. It could be that the operator hasn’t invested much time or energy into canvassing the market yet, by the sounds of it they aren’t a U.K. operator so they won’t understand the hyper competitive nature of the airport industry in central and northern England. Vantage learned about this the hard way.
If there isn’t much appetite, or if the operator learns that in order to get the airport to a profitable position they would need significant resource to do so, it may fall onto the Council to up the funding available. Some suggest the Council will only be liable to service the lease costs, I find that hard to believe at the moment.
Takeaway from it is that yes they have made progress. But no a Spring 2026 opening to passenger traffic is far from certain at the moment.
It’s a shame they got Ros Jones talking, she doesn’t really have a way with words unfortunately. Not did the other two speakers really inspire much either. Coppard actually sounded quite positive but doesn’t appear to have changed his stance that whatever happens they have to protect the investment, and I think that was his usual caution.
He said right at the beginning and throughout that he doesn’t believe the public sector should be running airports, I saw him like a post on his Facebook years ago right at the beginning of this that questioned the viability of the airport. The largest authority in the MCA has banned public advertisement of air travel (though admittedly the SCC support CDC in the project).
What is clear is that despite the announcement last week that an operator has been identified, it suggests that yes, the council have indeed selected their preferred operator, but has the preferred operator agreed the terms within which they will operate the airport? The legal and commercial negotiations that still need to be completed could in theory throw some curve balls. It could be that the operator hasn’t invested much time or energy into canvassing the market yet, by the sounds of it they aren’t a U.K. operator so they won’t understand the hyper competitive nature of the airport industry in central and northern England. Vantage learned about this the hard way.
If there isn’t much appetite, or if the operator learns that in order to get the airport to a profitable position they would need significant resource to do so, it may fall onto the Council to up the funding available. Some suggest the Council will only be liable to service the lease costs, I find that hard to believe at the moment.
Takeaway from it is that yes they have made progress. But no a Spring 2026 opening to passenger traffic is far from certain at the moment.
The BBC article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw09w6j992o
To me this reads like they are needing more public money to “incentivise “ airlines to even entertain going to DSA and to underwrite the significant commercial risk. Add to that it now looks the public sector will be a lot more involved in the airport then originally envisaged this is starting to move significantly away from the operating model originally envisaged in the outline business case.
If this is starting to go north of needling £150m I can see public support away from the mechanics fanatics starting to evaporate.
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- Jan 16, 2009
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Having listened to the SYMCA meeting today, it does seem like the BBC have put a negative spin on things. However, they are only interpreting it how we are!
The actual meeting;
Home - South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority Webcasting
Home - South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority Webcasting
southyorkshire-ca.public-i.tv
Remains to be seen whether last weeks announcement was an error of judgement in being premature or a tactical way to hold SYMCA to ransom by dangling a carrot to gain public support.
It’s certainly going to need far more than £105million, question is where is the rest coming from, and when?
I suspect they are now starting to realise it will be years before (if ever ) it makes a profit and until then it will require public funding. As you say where will the money come from???Having listened to the SYMCA meeting today, it does seem like the BBC have put a negative spin on things. However, they are only interpreting it how we are!
The actual meeting;
Home - South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority Webcasting
Home - South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority Webcasting
Remains to be seen whether last weeks announcement was an error of judgement in being premature or a tactical way to hold SYMCA to ransom by dangling a carrot to gain public support.
It’s certainly going to need far more than £105million, question is where is the rest coming from, and when?
I get the point re the LBA and TUI thing however does it not get to a point where the TUI thing just needs forgetting a little its nearly two decades ago times have moved on a bit surely, did TUI leaving not help Jet2 become as big as they are at LBA in any way or would they have grown the same anyway with a larger TUI presence?
I really don't get where TUI could/should have been flying 10 aircraft too out of DSA I think that's an extremely high number for one airline at an airport like DSA even without any competition.
As for the DSA FB pages or such I wouldn't know where to find them or want to in the slightest no offence the majority wont know a 737 from a 757 and again like the council showed little interest until the place shut. I think the actual real supporter base for the airport who have a genuine affinity for the place is being overstated a fair bit the real DSA community is exceptionally small.
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