A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

[White Heather]

The BBC article https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjw09w6j992o
To me this reads like they are needing more public money to “incentivise “ airlines to even entertain going to DSA and to underwrite the significant commercial risk. Add to that it now looks the public sector will be a lot more involved in the airport then originally envisaged this is starting to move significantly away from the operating model originally envisaged in the outline business case.
If this is starting to go north of needling £150m I can see public support away from the mechanics fanatics starting to evaporate.

I'm surprised that airlines will consider being incentivised to go to DSA as this has happened previously and once the incentivisation ends, which it will, the same outcome is likely unless suddenly there is a surge of people wanting to book flights from there.

Since incentivisation means reduced or even non existent profit for the airport, how does the airport avoid going down the same dead end route as it did under Peel unless it's passenger numbers are significantly higher than before? It's like the same business model and they say doing the same thing expecting a different outcome is a sign of insanity.

I'm not sure either why these deluded politicians think once again, that airlines will abandon existing bases or that people will follow their favourite airline down the road should that even happen. History shows that when TUi abandoned their LBA base, in favour of the sweeteners on offer at DSA, the vast majority of LBA passengers stuck with LBA, switching to Thomas Cook, and then opening the door to Jet2.

It really is difficult to see how this will work, particularly given that they are talking about 2026 before anything happens. Are airlines going to forgo expansion at the likes of MAN, EMA and LBA so as to commit to operations at an as yet unopened DSA - and with no guarantee it WILL actually be open in Spring 2026? Are the politicians clued up enough to realise how long it will take this time to recruit, and train all the required personnel, procure all the necessary equipment, and have it installed and tested, let all the required contracts with the likes of Swissport, who themselves then have to recruit (and possibly train) staff, not to mention let contracts for all the terminal retail outlets and then have them all built and stocked - and staffed.

None of this can even start until the operators contract is in place and a deal agreed, so all needs to be completed in around a year. 52 weeks isn't that long. Government security checks alone take up to 4 months before recruited staff can even be trained. They may be being over optimistic thinking the first passenger flights will be operational by Spring 2026, even if they do attract airlines.

Some interesting times ahead!

 

[Snackbar]

I'm surprised that airlines will consider being incentivised to go to DSA as this has happened previously and once the incentivisation ends, which it will, the same outcome is likely unless suddenly there is a surge of people wanting to book flights from there.

Since incentivisation means reduced or even non existent profit for the airport, how does the airport avoid going down the same dead end route as it did under Peel unless it's passenger numbers are significantly higher than before? It's like the same business model and they say doing the same thing expecting a different outcome is a sign of insanity.

I'm not sure either why these deluded politicians think once again, that airlines will abandon existing bases or that people will follow their favourite airline down the road should that even happen. History shows that when TUi abandoned their LBA base, in favour of the sweeteners on offer at DSA, the vast majority of LBA passengers stuck with LBA, switching to Thomas Cook, and then opening the door to Jet2.

It really is difficult to see how this will work, particularly given that they are talking about 2026 before anything happens. Are airlines going to forgo expansion at the likes of MAN, EMA and LBA so as to commit to operations at an as yet unopened DSA - and with no guarantee it WILL actually be open in Spring 2026? Are the politicians clued up enough to realise how long it will take this time to recruit, and train all the required personnel, procure all the necessary equipment, and have it installed and tested, let all the required contracts with the likes of Swissport, who themselves then have to recruit (and possibly train) staff, not to mention let contracts for all the terminal retail outlets and then have them all built and stocked - and staffed.

None of this can even start until the operators contract is in place and a deal agreed, so all needs to be completed in around a year. 52 weeks isn't that long. Government security checks alone take up to 4 months before recruited staff can even be trained. They may be being over optimistic thinking the first passenger flights will be operational by Spring 2026, even if they do attract airlines.

Some interesting times ahead!

I’d agree there seems to be some very naive thinking around the potential to get airlines to move….they won’t.
You only have to speak to people involved in the travel industry for instance around West and North Yorks to get an understanding of the commercial risk involved in moving an operation from LBA for instance. For the bucket and spade flights the preference was always LBA and then close second was MAN, even when open and for TUI holidays MAN always trumped DSA.
It take years to build up a market and seconds to lose it.

 

[pug]

I get the point re the LBA and TUI thing however does it not get to a point where the TUI thing just needs forgetting a little its nearly two decades ago times have moved on a bit surely, did TUI leaving not help Jet2 become as big as they are at LBA in any way or would they have grown the same anyway with a larger TUI presence?

I really don't get where TUI could/should have been flying 10 aircraft too out of DSA I think that's an extremely high number for one airline at an airport like DSA even without any competition.

As for the DSA FB pages or such I wouldn't know where to find them or want to in the slightest no offence the majority wont know a 737 from a 757 and again like the council showed little interest until the place shut. I think the actual real supporter base for the airport who have a genuine affinity for the place is being overstated a fair bit the real DSA community is exceptionally small.

I’m not sure if we could know which direction jet2 may or may not have gone in, but u don’t think TUI moving to DSA made them decide to pursue package holidays. The holidays arm was tiny just over 10 years ago, but it’s grown exponentially because Philip Meeson got it and understood what was missing.

It is likely that had DSA never opened, TUI would have based at both LBA and HUY, and HUY would naturally be serving the Doncaster market now as part of the wider Humber and Lincolnshire region. Thats what bugged me about it initially, how much promise there was at HUY to be a sustainable and profitable operation with some genuine niche ops that can only really be done from HUY. The holidays market is bread and butter stuff, and it would never have had a 4 ac base from TUI, but unencumbered it would have been in a solid position now. SZD closing too, that should never have happened. It’s criminal that more wasn’t explored to exploit its location! It is true, a city the size of Sheffield should have an airport, but DSA just isn’t likely to be it.

 

[Rob c DSA]

I’m not sure if we could know which direction jet2 may or may not have gone in, but u don’t think TUI moving to DSA made them decide to pursue package holidays. The holidays arm was tiny just over 10 years ago, but it’s grown exponentially because Philip Meeson got it and understood what was missing.

It is likely that had DSA never opened, TUI would have based at both LBA and HUY, and HUY would naturally be serving the Doncaster market now as part of the wider Humber and Lincolnshire region. Thats what bugged me about it initially, how much promise there was at HUY to be a sustainable and profitable operation with some genuine niche ops that can only really be done from HUY. The holidays market is bread and butter stuff, and it would never have had a 4 ac base from TUI, but unencumbered it would have been in a solid position now. SZD closing too, that should never have happened. It’s criminal that more wasn’t explored to exploit its location! It is true, a city the size of Sheffield should have an airport, but DSA just isn’t likely to be it.

Amazing to think Jet2 stand where they do today, the landscape is certainly very different with the failures of Monarch and Thomas Cook added into the mix the company must be congratulated on what has been a resounding success that shows no sign of slowing down.

I feel for Humberside it's a tough ride for the airport like so many other small regional airports the road will continue to be bumpy it hasn't the resilience of an LBA in regards to TUI not serving the airport with any sort of volume. I can't help but fear the path for most of our regional airports serving 2M passengers or less will be anything but difficult the odd one such as Bournemouth appears to be thriving at present but the big fish will continue to put the squeze on our small regional airports the debate on DSA will continue to rage rightly or wrongly it looks like reopening I just hope for its sake and those involved in its reopening that it is a success something that was in short supply the first time. However unlikely it may appear I don't believe some success can't be achieved however making money and being a success is a whole different ball game.

A simple look around FR24 on any given day of the week this winter at all small regional UK airport is a stark reminder of the tough nature of the business and endless fight just to survive its quite frightening to see the scraps these airports are living off. DSA in winter was pretty damn dead some days but nothing different to elsewhere I really don't see where success is found a second time around in regards to PAX ops unless more bucket and spade arrives with a different name on it but then where is the tipping point in regards to over saturation of the market, you ain't filling anymore seats to the likes of Amsterdam or such mark 2. Rio and Rome won't happen unless it's one of the most deluded DSA supporters with a wish list being waved about so this operator is certainly going to have to come up with something different so unless freight becomes great against the odds or the place gets some painters and decorator or something of that ilk its head scratching time.

Ironically in my eyes a certain airline based in West Yorkshire really is make or break for the place the unlikely did just happen and they stuck around which they have everywhere they go with a couple of familiar faces to boot as the core of the operation possibly all of it, just maybe it has a chance if they can build around that. I really think it is that important regarding PAX ops that Jet 2 are involved the others would all come and go like before we have to assume. Could the one airline who haven't tried and failed actually be a success down the road from home at a failed airport helping making it a success the second time around. Crazier things have happen but possibly not many crazier things.

 

[Aviador]

get the point re the LBA and TUI thing however does it not get to a point where the TUI thing just needs forgetting a little its nearly two decades ago times have moved on a bit surely, did TUI leaving not help Jet2 become as big as they are at LBA in any way or would they have grown the same anyway with a larger TUI presence?

I'm sorry if it feels like Im regurgitating old information but the reason why it still matters is the catchment for DSA or surrounding airports hasn't changed. Call Tui "X" and Jet2 "y" if you like but the catchment stays the same. Just because one airline fancies trying out one airport nearby doesn't mean it's customer base will follow as proved in the real world. That is the point I was making.

 

[rabbitfoot]

the only way I feel the airport can be viable, is with an investor, who is attracted by what is possible in the surrounding area. they would have to be prepared to take a loss on the airport, but make their money from commercial property
the SYMCA say they want to capitalise on the region being the UK’s first Investment Zone focused on advanced manufacturing engineering and creating a sustainable aviation hub. McLaren, Boeing, Rolls-Royce and Hybrid Air Vehicles have already chosen to locate in the region.
where are they going to site these companies?
great Yorkshire way as 200 + acres that could be developed. it is farm land , but there is the amazone building, I know this was passed because it is agriculture, but that would make development easier . if CDC where involved, planning would get the go ahead

farm land is on average 10,000 an acre

average price of commercial land 1,000,000 per acre

so there is a huge profit to be made.

thats why i wonder if they are also in talks with an investor?

 

[White Heather]

Amazing to think Jet2 stand where they do today, the landscape is certainly very different with the failures of Monarch and Thomas Cook added into the mix the company must be congratulated on what has been a resounding success that shows no sign of slowing down.

I feel for Humberside it's a tough ride for the airport like so many other small regional airports the road will continue to be bumpy it hasn't the resilience of an LBA in regards to TUI not serving the airport with any sort of volume. I can't help but fear the path for most of our regional airports serving 2M passengers or less will be anything but difficult the odd one such as Bournemouth appears to be thriving at present but the big fish will continue to put the squeze on our small regional airports the debate on DSA will continue to rage rightly or wrongly it looks like reopening I just hope for its sake and those involved in its reopening that it is a success something that was in short supply the first time. However unlikely it may appear I don't believe some success can't be achieved however making money and being a success is a whole different ball game.

A simple look around FR24 on any given day of the week this winter at all small regional UK airport is a stark reminder of the tough nature of the business and endless fight just to survive its quite frightening to see the scraps these airports are living off. DSA in winter was pretty damn dead some days but nothing different to elsewhere I really don't see where success is found a second time around in regards to PAX ops unless more bucket and spade arrives with a different name on it but then where is the tipping point in regards to over saturation of the market, you ain't filling anymore seats to the likes of Amsterdam or such mark 2. Rio and Rome won't happen unless it's one of the most deluded DSA supporters with a wish list being waved about so this operator is certainly going to have to come up with something different so unless freight becomes great against the odds or the place gets some painters and decorator or something of that ilk its head scratching time.

Ironically in my eyes a certain airline based in West Yorkshire really is make or break for the place the unlikely did just happen and they stuck around which they have everywhere they go with a couple of familiar faces to boot as the core of the operation possibly all of it, just maybe it has a chance if they can build around that. I really think it is that important regarding PAX ops that Jet 2 are involved the others would all come and go like before we have to assume. Could the one airline who haven't tried and failed actually be a success down the road from home at a failed airport helping making it a success the second time around. Crazier things have happen but possibly not many crazier things.

And today we find out that Jet2 are doing just what they said they wouldn't do, and are opening a 13th base at Luton next year with 2 aircraft. So, does this latest base make a further base at DSA less likely, or does it means that Jet2 are not done yet and open to a 14th base in the future sitting in the middle of three other established bases?

Interestingly, there are suggestions of Jet2 flights into LTN on a W pattern, something they've never done before. If they're going down that road then just perhaps they could dip their toes in the DSA water one day to see what response they get, but it would take far more than that to make DSA financially viable.

 

[pug]

And today we find out that Jet2 are doing just what they said they wouldn't do, and are opening a 13th base at Luton next year with 5 aircraft. So, does this latest base make a further base at DSA less likely, or does it means that Jet2 are not done yet and open to a 14th base in the future sitting in the middle of three other established bases?

Interestingly, there are suggestions of Jet2 flights into LTN on a W pattern, something they've never done before. If they're going down that road then just perhaps they could dip their toes in the DSA water one day to see what response they get, but it would take far more than that to make DSA financially viable.

Think there are other reasons for a base at LTN beyond just expanding to serve more bases. Other activity has been going on down there recently with rumours of other things of interest. Certainly never saw it coming but it could be seen as a warning shot to easyJet who are seriously considering entering into the holidays market in a much bigger way than before. With rumours of easyJet wanting to expand into LBA, it could be a reactionary move to start a turf war! I’d be surprised if the W patterns last, seems they’re rolling it out with some haste! But it will serve a market distinct from STN because of the amount of people that live in the West London, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire and Northamptonshire area which must be a big catchment area in its own right.

Dont think it has any implications for DSA one way or the other. They could go in there given the right support, but they also could just forego it like they did last time because the area isn’t particularly attractive and is already well covered by nearby bases.

As for Humberside as Rob DSA pointed out, it’s profitable as it is, it made an operating loss of £3000.00 last year, and a profit when taking into account property on the site. This is absolutely nothing in the great scheme of things, and I do think it had some scope for modest expansion due to its relative remoteness, which may have offered people in the Humber, Lincolnshire and Doncaster areas choice of a local departure point that wasn’t susceptible to as much competition. Alas it wasn’t to be, and it’s in the hands of a company that I don’t believe really know it exists. It does serve a purpose though and will continue doing so and as small as it is, it will still compete with DSA.

May I cast peoples minds back to 2003 and the successful conclusion of the public enquiry;

BBC NEWS | UK | England | South Yorkshire | New airport gets the go-ahead

7000 jobs and 2 million passengers. Eerily familiar isn’t it.

 

[Aviador]

the only way I feel the airport can be viable, is with an investor, who is attracted by what is possible in the surrounding area. they would have to be prepared to take a loss on the airport, but make their money from commercial property

Now that I agree with, but, if the airport operator doesn't have anything to do with the surrounding developments, what is in it for them? Who owns the land or commercial units?

Most airports have these tag along office developments these days but I'm not too sure if they are owned by the airport companies or by another land owner. At Manchester airport there is Airport City. Leeds has Airport West plus another larger site proposed but I don't know if that is airport or council owned. I'm fairly sure other airports have similar.

 

[Rob c DSA]

And today we find out that Jet2 are doing just what they said they wouldn't do, and are opening a 13th base at Luton next year with 2 aircraft. So, does this latest base make a further base at DSA less likely, or does it means that Jet2 are not done yet and open to a 14th base in the future sitting in the middle of three other established bases?

Interestingly, there are suggestions of Jet2 flights into LTN on a W pattern, something they've never done before. If they're going down that road then just perhaps they could dip their toes in the DSA water one day to see what response they get, but it would take far more than that to make DSA financially viable.

The rate of expansion with these new bases from Jet2 along with where they actually are positioned in terms of Liverpool and Luton seems to suggest maybe they have grown that much and become that big they feel they could succeed pretty much anywhere thats still realistic I guess on that note with the addition of Luton the list of possibe places they could pitch up at is now diminishing somewhat with these latest bases announced however like stated last night the success story is incredible surely nobody on the outside looking in believed Jet 2 would end up the huge company it is now. I just feel be it DSA or somewhere else they have the drive and ability to make anywhere work.

 

[pug]

The rate of expansion with these new bases from Jet2 along with where they actually are positioned in terms of Liverpool and Luton seems to suggest maybe they have grown that much and become that big they feel they could succeed pretty much anywhere thats still realistic I guess on that note with the addition of Luton the list of possibe places they could pitch up at is now diminishing somewhat with these latest bases announced however like stated last night the success story is incredible surely nobody on the outside looking in believed Jet 2 would end up the huge company it is now. I just feel be it DSA or somewhere else they have the drive and ability to make anywhere work.

Big difference between DSA and LTN/STN. Dont think I need to explain why. See also LPL/MAN which has a combined catchment area of some 7 million people.

The Yorkshire market is smaller and fragmented and East of DSA is sparsely populated and already served by an airport. Move it 20 miles to the West and combine it with LBA and you’re into something. Til then it’s fighting over the same market and DSA is closer to less people.

 

[Rob c DSA]

Big difference between DSA and LTN/STN. Dont think I need to explain why. See also LPL/MAN which has a combined catchment area of some 7 million people.

The Yorkshire market is smaller and fragmented and East of DSA is sparsely populated and already served by an airport. Move it 20 miles to the West and combine it with LBA and you’re into something. Til then it’s fighting over the same market and DSA is closer to less people.

Get that I just can't see an airline who could make things work bar the two who did previously I don't see either loco making it work anything bar the loco's seems far fetched in anyone's eyes I just can't see any hope bar Jet2 having the knowledge they could get it right why they would do it I don't know they probably would not enterain the idea however I can't see where success is found where it wasn't previously in any form in regards to pax ops bar Jet2 suprising everyone and putting aircraft on the ground at DSA.

 

[pug]

I’m not one to get fully on board with the Green Agenda, but I am on board with some of the fundamental principles of it. A lot of my pilot buddies are too, which may surprise people. I do think there should be a balance, but the below article from an environmentally conscious outlet is quite a compelling read for the most part when looking at it from an economic POV;

Is it time for everyone in Sheffield to give up flying for good?

Our jet-setting lifestyles in the global north come at enormous cost to people and planet – and the aviation industry’s proposed solutions simply don’t add up.

nowthenmagazine.com

I already posted a link to a BBC article from 2003 which detailed Peels forecast of 7000 jobs and 2 million passengers per year. Clearly these numbers were over inflated. But in 2020 the airport CC heard from an airport representative who highlighted that GVA of the airport was estimated to be in the region of £50million per year with a direct employment of 150 people. The claims therefore that 800 people relied on ten airport for employment seem spurious, even when taking into account people employed by TUI (none of which understand were made redundant?) and Swissport (also I understand offered the opportunity to redeploy). 2Excel are still on site, whilst they have dispersed their ops elsewhere most of it is just down the road in Humberside so it’s feasible to expect that no job losses resulted, and money didn’t ultimately leave the area. So where are the 2700 estimated jobs that relied on the airport? It seems widely over inflated to me. Is quite telling that the only business the media could find that was impacted was the Crown Hotel in Bawtry. As far as I’m aware that business is still going.

Now the CDC and SYMCA are making claims that the airport will contribute £6.6bn to the local economy giving a cost to benefit ratio of 9:1. That would suggest that the estimated cost of the project over the same timeframe is £733,333,333.33, or about 7 times the amount CDC/SYMCA claim to be investing into the project. So where is that money coming from? To put it into context, Peel lost around £170million during the operating lifespan of DSA mk1, not including the amount they invested into it to get it up to standard.

I can only surmise that the vast majority of that will be non aviation development relating to Gateway East, which could be developed anyway regardless of whether an airport exists or not. They claim to have projections that see the airport making a profit within 5 years, but also haven’t provided specifics on airline operators that they envisage using the airport apart from to say that they could be processing 2mppa by year 10. This would suggest that they envisage a number of based carriers. Again, Peel were well known for undercutting on cost which is one of the reasons they were initially successful at attracting traffic. So are they expecting that these airline operators will move in without such vast subsidies on offer? Because to me it’s inconceivable that they will be profitable in such a short timeframe.

The operator will not own the land, they may have a share in the airport company, but that would then make them liable for any losses incurred. The council state in the FBC that they will be taking a bigger share of the risk than they would have liked. Who is it going to fall on to maintain the capital intensive requirements that airports have, whilst covering losses over a long term? Simply I can’t imagine the operator will be willing to do so.

I read elsewhere that there is a groundswell of dissent within the authorities making up the SYMCA. Are they going to start voicing their concerns soon or are they too afraid? Coppard as ever appears supportive, but it’s said through gritted teeth knowing how much of a political minefield this is. If the airport fails to open the people will always remember, but if it does open and is once again a perennial loss maker, questions will eventually be asked.

I wonder how much genuine support there is throughout the wider SYMCA electorate. I would be happy to bet it’s only Doncaster who are shouting the loudest, and even then there is skepticism within.

 

[rabbitfoot]

planning as been submitted for a major service station at junction 3 of m18 where you leave the motorway to got to DSA on the great yorkshire way. there is also planning for warehouse units in the same area.

 

[pug]

planning as been submitted for a major service station at junction 3 of m18 where you leave the motorway to got to DSA on the great yorkshire way. there is also planning for warehouse units in the same area.

The same JCT3 that’s had me queueing for up to 30 minutes on more than one occasion because the M18 goes down to two lanes and the traffic on the slip road is at a standstill?

Is it a proper service station or just a petrol station with charging points and a Costa?

 

[rabbitfoot]

The same JCT3 that’s had me queueing for up to 30 minutes on more than one occasion because the M18 goes down to two lanes and the traffic on the slip road is at a standstill?

Is it a proper service station or just a petrol station with charging points and a Costa?

Plans were submitted last month to build a major service station in New Rossington comprising of several units.
The application is the latest of several by developer Premcor, forming wider plans to develop the area around Junction 3 of the M18.
the land either side as not been sold yet, one is 870 acres, the other 1,260 acres.

Plans were submitted last month to build a major service station in New Rossington comprising of several units.
The application is the latest of several by developer Premcor, forming wider plans to develop the area around Junction 3 of the M18.
the land either side as not been sold yet, one is 870 acres, the other 1,260 acres.

Premcor are contracted to bring forward a 50 acres site at Doncaster for an industrial warehouse development of up to 900,000 sq ft. this is the same company

 

[pug]

Plans were submitted last month to build a major service station in New Rossington comprising of several units.
The application is the latest of several by developer Premcor, forming wider plans to develop the area around Junction 3 of the M18.
the land either side as not been sold yet, one is 870 acres, the other 1,260 acres.


Premcor are contracted to bring forward a 50 acres site at Doncaster for an industrial warehouse development of up to 900,000 sq ft. this is the same company

The irony is that this development claims to be creating 3 x the amount of jobs than the airport employed directly, for probably marginal public input.

 

[Jetchaser]

With the announcement of expansion of Jet 2 and Easyjet at LBA, and seemingley more to come with all the huge development taking place there, could this be a nail in the coffin for DSA getting off the ground?

 

[White Heather]

With the announcement of expansion of Jet 2 and Easyjet at LBA, and seemingley more to come with all the huge development taking place there, could this be a nail in the coffin for DSA getting off the ground?

Only if the proposed operator sees reality and backs away. The politicians will no doubt blindly continue to spend big public bucks in the belief that DSA 2 will be a big success, by stealing airlines, routes, staff and customers from LBA, HUY, MAN and EMA.

Incidentally, next summer seems likely to also see an increase in Wizz at LBA with 14 slots booked. Still well below the 22 when they first arrived but a step in the right direction as their NEOs start to come back on line following their P&W engine issues.

Together with the other increases and based on this years performance, LBA should be looking at around 4.6m pax next year with more to come once the terminal is completed fully in May 2026. It's really hard to see how DSA can secure enough traffic to even justify spending all that money getting it back from the dead. Sadly even when they do, I doubt it will be long before it needs resuscitating again. It has the potential to turn into a huge drain on local resources and an equally huge embarrassment to those pushing this agenda.

 

[GolfFox]

With the announcement of expansion of Jet 2 and Easyjet at LBA, and seemingley more to come with all the huge development taking place there, could this be a nail in the coffin for DSA getting off the ground?

Doubt it -CDC are so far in that they will find it just about impossible to pull out. Reading between the lines from the change of narrative (and of course my interpretation may be incorrect) the original concept of 'shared risk' is out the window - or at least watered down and it seems that at start up the Council will be simply paying the 'operator' to operate - thus much more public subsidy than envisaged. If the input (if finally agreed with the 'bidder') is considered too much of a drain on public resources then of course SYMCA can veto the release of public funds but again unlikely to be brave enough. Unfortunately there does seem to be a lack of transparency hiding behind 'commercial sensitivity but eventually all will have to be revealed. It seems it probably will open with eventually a few holiday flights to placate the locals but as has been alluded to many times that potential business will not sustain the airport. Some creative accounting will be required??