A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

[pug]

Doubt it -CDC are so far in that they will find it just about impossible to pull out. Reading between the lines from the change of narrative (and of course my interpretation may be incorrect) the original concept of 'shared risk' is out the window - or at least watered down and it seems that at start up the Council will be simply paying the 'operator' to operate - thus much more public subsidy than envisaged. If the input (if finally agreed with the 'bidder') is considered too much of a drain on public resources then of course SYMCA can veto the release of public funds but again unlikely to be brave enough. Unfortunately there does seem to be a lack of transparency hiding behind 'commercial sensitivity but eventually all will have to be revealed. It seems it probably will open with eventually a few holiday flights to placate the locals but as has been alluded to many times that potential business will not sustain the airport. Some creative accounting will be required??

Creative accounting OR aggressive fixed cost savings owing to the ownership model? It is possible that due to the public ownership things like rates relief can be applied. This will form part of the SAU investigation which I’ve no doubt will be waved through because any consultants commissioned will have already considered this as part of their business plan. I would not be surprised to see the operator forming part of the airport ownership (holding company?) even if they have no initial financial obligations, another factor that I imagine will be subject to SAU review. Still not clear whether there is a private sector backer, this would help to mitigate the risk to the public. So far the involvement of an asset management company and financial backer os only subject to rumour, the FBC makes no mention of this and may allude to this being a target to attract after a period of probing commercial viability.

Like you’ve said, this is all being done behind closed doors In the name of commercial sensitivity and there is no transparency that would usually be expected in such a venture, it may be that they are protecting the interests of investors, but really I think they’re doing it to avoid too much public scrutiny because failure to reopen the airport could potentially be unrecoverable politically. Not such a problem for Ros Jones who will admit herself is at the end of her political career, but definitely for Oliver Coppard.

 

[rabbitfoot]

peel are pushing again to build 1500 -1800 homes next to the airport.
i wonder what support they will get for the locals?

peel are pushing again to build 1500 -1800 homes next to the airport.
i wonder what support they will get for the locals?

 

[pug]

peel are pushing again to build 1500 -1800 homes next to the airport.
i wonder what support they will get for the locals?

They’ll be pushed through, the Council need to keep them on side. It must be pointed out that this work is being proposed by the main Peel L&P and not what was the airport arm which is/was a separate entity. It is expected that if the airport reopens and if the council manage to attract private backing then there may be an expectation that whoever runs the airport will buy up some of the Gateway East land or pay to develop it. There is some suspicion as to whether the council have leased the hangars - common sense would suggest that those come as part of the airport package but it’s possible that they haven’t apparently,

 

[pug]

I understand at Doncaster full council meeting the other day, a number of questions were raised to Ros Jones about what she likes to call ‘Doncasser Sheffiel Airport-uh’. Questions relating to whether any head of terms had been agreed by airlines, how an average operating loss of £11 million can be turned into a profit in 5 years, why the £20 million loan was rejected in spite of other loans (what changed?).

The minutes have yet to be published, but it looks like none of those questions were answered. Be interesting to see the minutes when they’re finally released.

Agenda for Council on Thursday, 21st November, 2024, 2.00 pm - Modern Council

 

[GolfFox]

I understand at Doncaster full council meeting the other day, a number of questions were raised to Ros Jones about what she likes to call ‘Doncasser Sheffiel Airport-uh’. Questions relating to whether any head of terms had been agreed by airlines, how an average operating loss of £11 million can be turned into a profit in 5 years, why the £20 million loan was rejected in spite of other loans (what changed?).

The minutes have yet to be published, but it looks like none of those questions were answered. Be interesting to see the minutes when they’re finally released.

Agenda for Council on Thursday, 21st November, 2024, 2.00 pm - Modern Council

Reading between the lines again - the fact that none of the questions apparently were answered directly might lead one to believe that CDC are in some difficulty with this and probably in too deep to extricate themselves. Notwithstanding the questions were all from an opposition political party, they were very relevant questions which members from all political parties on the Council should be asking in defence of Doncaster rate payers. It's taking them a long time to wake up to the huge risk here - or are they just keeping their heads below the parapet pending the mud slinging?!

 

[pug]

Reading between the lines again - the fact that none of the questions apparently were answered directly might lead one to believe that CDC are in some difficulty with this and probably in too deep to extricate themselves. Notwithstanding the questions were all from an opposition political party, they were very relevant questions which members from all political parties on the Council should be asking in defence of Doncaster rate payers. It's taking them a long time to wake up to the huge risk here - or are they just keeping their heads below the parapet pending the mud slinging?!

It’s odd isn’t it. These questions should be answered openly and honestly. I appreciate question one could perhaps be commercially sensitive but she could say yes and leave it at that. But the others, those are questions that must be answered owing to the vast sums of money at stake. Particularly the one about the £11million per year operating loss on average, it’s a bold statement to say that they will be profitable within five years when that was the average loss over 17!

They have after all a plan that was written with the help of a consultant that was paid handsomely to tell them what they want to hear. It’s frightening, and I’m under no illusion that things like this go on all the time but this is a high profile project.

 

[Snackbar]

It’s odd isn’t it. These questions should be answered openly and honestly. I appreciate question one could perhaps be commercially sensitive but she could say yes and leave it at that. But the others, those are questions that must be answered owing to the vast sums of money at stake. Particularly the one about the £11million per year operating loss on average, it’s a bold statement to say that they will be profitable within five years when that was the average loss over 17!

They have after all a plan that was written with the help of a consultant that was paid handsomely to tell them what they want to hear. It’s frightening, and I’m under no illusion that things like this go on all the time but this is a high profile project.

It will be interesting to see the full business case when it does get published even with redactions. The recent news from both Jet2 and Easyjet at LBA will do nothing to improve the commercial chances of DSA especially given the future at LBA will now be increasingly Orange!!

 

[rollo]

Just an observation as I have no skin in DSA/LBA game.

Would the news that three bigger and profitable fish namely BHX,BRS and LCY total value put at 10 billion have been put up for sale have the effect of concentrating potential airport operators minds elsewhere ?

Just asking out of interest.

 

[GolfFox]

Just an observation as I have no skin in DSA/LBA game.

Would the news that three bigger and profitable fish namely BHX,BRS and LCY total value put at 10 billion have been put up for sale have the effect of concentrating potential airport operators minds elsewhere ?

Just asking out of interest.

Who knows - it's an interesting development! You would think that they would be much more of interest to the 'big boys' than DSA.

 

[pug]

Just an observation as I have no skin in DSA/LBA game.

Would the news that three bigger and profitable fish namely BHX,BRS and LCY total value put at 10 billion have been put up for sale have the effect of concentrating potential airport operators minds elsewhere ?

Just asking out of interest.

Interesting observation but I don’t think it will have any impact in this instance. The Council opened a procurement process to find an operator that they will presumably pay to run the airport, so as far as we can see yet there is no private sector investment as yet, and the airport isn’t for sale as yet. The type of investor likely to be interested in BHX, BRS and LCY will be unlikely to have any interest in DSA.

 

[Aviador]

Just an observation as I have no skin in DSA/LBA game.

Just a quick *Google

*The driving distance from Leeds (LBA) to Doncaster (DSA) is 49 miles / 79 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 8 minutes.

*The driving distance from Nottingham (EMA) to Doncaster (DSA) is 59 miles / 95 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 7 minutes.

*The driving distance from Doncaster (DSA) to Manchester (MAN) is 68 miles / 109 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 26 minutes.

*The driving distance from Doncaster (DSA) to Birmingham (BHX) is 93 miles / 150 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 44 minutes.

The big focus from DSA supporters has always been LBA which is interesting given the majority of leakage from the Yorkshire area is to Manchester Airport.

When DSA was open for the best part of 20 years it failed to tap into the leakage to MAN. The loss of a one aircraft base of TUI to DSA from LBA didn't lead to the leakage of the LBA catchment to DSA, it just allowed Jet2 to grow quicker from LBA.

If we look at distence and drive time only then EMA is as every much a target for DSA as LBA is and arguably DSA had very little impact on growth from there during the same period DSA was open.

 

[pug]

Just a quick *Google

*The driving distance from Leeds (LBA) to Doncaster (DSA) is 49 miles / 79 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 8 minutes.

*The driving distance from Nottingham (EMA) to Doncaster (DSA) is 59 miles / 95 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 7 minutes.

*The driving distance from Doncaster (DSA) to Manchester (MAN) is 68 miles / 109 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 26 minutes.

*The driving distance from Doncaster (DSA) to Birmingham (BHX) is 93 miles / 150 kilometers, and travel time by car is about 1 hour 44 minutes.

The big focus from DSA supporters has always been LBA which is interesting given the majority of leakage from the Yorkshire area is to Manchester Airport.

When DSA was open for the best part of 20 years it failed to tap into the leakage to MAN. The loss of a one aircraft base of TUI to DSA from LBA didn't lead to the leakage of the LBA catchment to DSA, it just allowed Jet2 to grow quicker from LBA.

If we look at distence and drive time only then EMA is as every much a target for DSA as LBA is and arguably DSA had very little impact on growth from there during the same period DSA was open.

The only airport it had any major impact on was Humberside with the loss of TUI and the restricted growth potential owing to a very close competitor fighting for the same sparse market. It’s impossible to say what would have happened had DSA never happened, but I fully believe TUI would have based at HUY and possibly gained a bit more too.

The recording of Thursdays Council meeting has been published;

About half way though the video. Not surprisingly Ros Jones is struggling through reading a pre planned answer that provides no answer whatsoever to each question asked.

It’s embarrassing, I honestly have never seen anything like it. Seriously are these people really helping reopen an airport? They’d be relegated to tea and coffee making duties and not invited to any meetings in the places I’ve worked. Shocking.

 

[Rob c DSA]

The only airport it had any major impact on was Humberside with the loss of TUI and the restricted growth potential owing to a very close competitor fighting for the same sparse market. It’s impossible to say what would have happened had DSA never happened, but I fully believe TUI would have based at HUY and possibly gained a bit more too.

The recording of Thursdays Council meeting has been published;

About half way though the video. Bit surprisingly Ros Jones is struggling through reading a pre planned answer that provides no answer whatsoever to each question asked.

It’s embarrassing, I honestly have never seen anything like it. Seriously are these people really helping reopen an airport? They’d be relegated to tea and coffee making duties and not invited to any meetings in the places I’ve worked. Shocking.

I can only assume this stuff's the norm at every meeting, plenty of people don't find speaking in public easy but the lady chairing the meeting is awful you would think that would be the start point getting a chair to the meeting who can at least run the thing well.

Things certainly are not as rosy on the inside as they are making out. looks a shambles the whole thing.

 

[White Heather]

The only airport it had any major impact on was Humberside with the loss of TUI and the restricted growth potential owing to a very close competitor fighting for the same sparse market. It’s impossible to say what would have happened had DSA never happened, but I fully believe TUI would have based at HUY and possibly gained a bit more too.

The recording of Thursdays Council meeting has been published;

About half way though the video. Bit surprisingly Ros Jones is struggling through reading a pre planned answer that provides no answer whatsoever to each question asked.

It’s embarrassing, I honestly have never seen anything like it. Seriously are these people really helping reopen an airport? They’d be relegated to tea and coffee making duties and not invited to any meetings in the places I’ve worked. Shocking.

Jeez. Shocking. The Chair is appalling and can't even read concisely. What seems clear from the answers ( that answered nothing at all) is that Councillors have been told to butt out and say nothing about DSA, but under pressure from the electorate, they are now asking the same sort of questions we ask here. The Mayor appeared to be blocking all the awkward questions and as good as admitted that she is pushing to reopen it because that's what the voters want - the implications being it will be opened come hell or high water, whether it makes a profit or loss.

Overall, that video suggests the city is run by a bunch of people who struggle with the most basic things relating to running a meeting.

I'd love to know where they get their GDP figures from too. They're claiming a higher figure for DSA towards the South Yorkshire Region on the basis of 2m pax in 10 years, than LBA are claiming based on 7m pax by 2030. To me that suggests their business case is very much dependent on the other aviation related industries they think are going to move into the airport. There's no way they'll make that contribution based on airline passenger services.

It doesn’t surprise me having been involved with some fairly significant procurement bids with the public sector - these folks wouldn’t last 2 minutes in the private sector!
Just to think we trust them with millions of our taxes!

I worked in procurement in the Civil Service. The standard of our meetings and calibre of management far exceeded what I've just watched . Nobody had to read off anything. They knew their stuff.

 

[pug]

Jeez. Shocking. The Chair is appalling and can't even read concisely. What seems clear from the answers ( that answered nothing at all) is that Councillors have been told to butt out and say nothing about DSA, but under pressure from the electorate, they are now asking the same sort of questions we ask here. The Mayor appeared to be blocking all the awkward questions and as good as admitted that she is pushing to reopen it because that's what the voters want - the implications being it will be opened come hell or high water, whether it makes a profit or loss.

Overall, that video suggests the city is run by a bunch of people who struggle with the most basic things relating to running a meeting.

I'd love to know where they get their GDP figures from too. They're claiming a higher figure for DSA towards the South Yorkshire Region on the basis of 2m pax in 10 years, than LBA are claiming based on 7m pax by 2030. To me that suggests their business case is very much dependent on the other aviation related industries they think are going to move into the airport. There's no way they'll make that contribution based on airline passenger services.


I worked in procurement in the Civil Service. The standard of our meetings and calibre of management far exceeded what I've just watched . Nobody had to read off anything. They knew their stuff.

It’s not only that but the answers (and I admit I’ve not watched all of them) were quite incoherent. Something about sensitivity and some papers that were available for councillors to view - to the point where one opposition councillor says quite rightly ‘we’ve supported you like you asked but now it’s time to answer the questions’. Why can’t she comment on the previous incarnation? The losses sustained are a talking point that nobody has openly discussed. The aviation consultancy were paid to give them an answer they liked. So why is no scrutiny permitted?

I think she knows it’s a dud but is too afraid to admit it. Probably hoping that SYMCA reject it so that the flack can be sent in that direction.

 

[White Heather]

It’s not only that but the answers (and I admit I’ve not watched all of them) were quite incoherent. Something about sensitivity and some papers that were available for councillors to view - to the point where one opposition councillor says quite rightly ‘we’ve supported you like you asked but now it’s time to answer the questions’. Why can’t she comment on the previous incarnation? The losses sustained are a talking point that nobody has openly discussed. The aviation consultancy were paid to give them an answer they liked. So why is no scrutiny permitted?

I think she knows it’s a dud but is too afraid to admit it. Probably hoping that SYMCA reject it so that the flack can be sent in that direction.

Basically she came across as shutting every Councillor down when they asked a question about DSA. Her final statement was almost accusing them of not supporting DSA because they asked their questions, as though they should just shut up and ask nothing. They, the Councillors who asked, are doing their job. They have every right to criticise the Mayor regarding her refusal to answer and her overall dismissive attitude.

In the initial question as to whether any airlines had signed contracts to operate from DSA, she would easily have said yes, they have, but I'm unable to say who on commercial sensitivity grounds, but to me her answer suggested that no airline has. And why would they when they have no idea of the operator, nor the deals on offer, nor (I would suggest) any real certainty the airport actually will be open and operational for Spring 2026, just 16 months from now.

 

[pug]

Basically she came across as shutting every Councillor down when they asked a question about DSA. Her final statement was almost accusing them of not supporting DSA because they asked their questions, as though they should just shut up and ask nothing. They, the Councillors who asked, are doing their job. They have every right to criticise the Mayor regarding her refusal to answer and her overall dismissive attitude.

In the initial question as to whether any airlines had signed contracts to operate from DSA, she would easily have said yes, they have, but I'm unable to say who on commercial sensitivity grounds, but to me her answer suggested that no airline has. And why would they when they have no idea of the operator, nor the deals on offer, nor (I would suggest) any real certainty the airport actually will be open and operational for Spring 2026, just 16 months from now.

Just watched the airport related questions in full. I don’t think any of them came across particularly well, although the councillors asking the questions appeared to be doing so in good faith. It’s apparent that they were told previously to keep out of it and let the execs get on with it, but to then shut down legitimate questions is inherently wrong when such large amounts of public money are on the line.

My take away though is that they’re a bunch of incompetent idiots and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a microphone. It’s safe to assume Ros Jones has had these questions for over a week now, so to dismiss them out of hand in such a lacklustre and at times incoherent way defies belief. I do hope the people they’ve got leading the discussions are far more eloquent and knowledgable.

They clearly have no airlines in place as yet. They clearly haven’t scrutinised the business plan against the Peel operation of previous, they clearly aren’t capable of answering even the simplest questions. It’s a recipe for disaster this.

 

[Bantamzen]

The only airport it had any major impact on was Humberside with the loss of TUI and the restricted growth potential owing to a very close competitor fighting for the same sparse market. It’s impossible to say what would have happened had DSA never happened, but I fully believe TUI would have based at HUY and possibly gained a bit more too.

The recording of Thursdays Council meeting has been published;

About half way though the video. Not surprisingly Ros Jones is struggling through reading a pre planned answer that provides no answer whatsoever to each question asked.

It’s embarrassing, I honestly have never seen anything like it. Seriously are these people really helping reopen an airport? They’d be relegated to tea and coffee making duties and not invited to any meetings in the places I’ve worked. Shocking.

Firstly, thanks for posting this up. It was very interesting to watch the Mayor squirm as the questions landed. It told me a told of where this project really is, as opposed to where she wants to project them to be. "Can't tell you, shut up" was pretty much the sum of her answers.

What was more interesting though was that some councillors are starting to wake up to the very real possibility that CDC's projections of profits are actually more likely to be pie in the sky, and that a lot of public money could be at risk if they continue down this road. In particular the question on Peel's accounting during the period DSA was open shows a growing concern that DSA risks becoming their giant money pit, something many people here have previously expressed concern about. At a time where pressure on council budgets across the country over are increasingly strained, to the point where some are literally on the brink, CDC's continued push for their dream airport and the fabled 9:1 benefit / cost ratio seem to be nothing but extreme folly. I suspect the dissent starting to be shown in the chamber is a reflection of a growing concern amongst Doncaster's public that chasing DSA is a very flawed strategy.

I'm not totally saying that Project Save DSA is about to contract Norwegian Blue Syndrome, but I'm certainly thinking it loudly.

 

[White Heather]

Firstly, thanks for posting this up. It was very interesting to watch the Mayor squirm as the questions landed. It told me a told of where this project really is, as opposed to where she wants to project them to be. "Can't tell you, shut up" was pretty much the sum of her answers.

What was more interesting though was that some councillors are starting to wake up to the very real possibility that CDC's projections of profits are actually more likely to be pie in the sky, and that a lot of public money could be at risk if they continue down this road. In particular the question on Peel's accounting during the period DSA was open shows a growing concern that DSA risks becoming their giant money pit, something many people here have previously expressed concern about. At a time where pressure on council budgets across the country over are increasingly strained, to the point where some are literally on the brink, CDC's continued push for their dream airport and the fabled 9:1 benefit / cost ratio seem to be nothing but extreme folly. I suspect the dissent starting to be shown in the chamber is a reflection of a growing concern amongst Doncaster's public that chasing DSA is a very flawed strategy.

I'm not totally saying that Project Save DSA is about to contract Norwegian Blue Syndrome, but I'm certainly thinking it loudly.

I play golf with a couple of lads from the Doncaster area. Both have expressed concern to me about DSA being re-opened and the cost, and both feel it will be an expensive white elephant . Neither used it much previously, flying from MAN, and EMA . I'm sure they are not alone, but if the attitude of the senior politicians pushing this is that councillors should ask no questions and shut up, (which effectively means that the public they represent must do the same) then it seems that this bonkers scheme will only be stopped by the South Yorkshire Mayor or Central Government.

I couldn't help thinking watching this video that the Mayor is in a crusade with this and isn't going to stop no matter what. Her attitude is very concerning, coming across that it's not the other Councillors business so not to ask or rock the boat.

Is there any one or any body out there who can see the risks and intervene, with a view to at the very least reviewing some if the crazy claims being made in order to justify this scheme?

 

[Finger66]

Maybe this is a Middle East and/or Ukraine V3. So many people can see it needs stopping but don't, or won't, have the b***s to really do anything to properly stop something that is so wrong. OK i agree we are talking very different circumstances and potential repercussions but I think you get the sentiment regarding silent opposition. Hence the dictator carries on regardless!