A new airport.... South Yorkshire Airport City?

[pug]

Oliver Coppard has posted a statement that seems to be designed to reign people back in a bit..

I remain 100% committed to reopening DSA.

But we will do this the right way.

The deal we sign must offer a secure future for our airport, create growth in the economy, and offer real value for taxpayers.

There is still work to do.

Perhaps bringing things back down to earth? Seems to me that the plans aren’t as plain sailing as it’s being sold to be in the FBC. But that comes as no surprise after reading it. This is a huge risk, particularly if it’s not being met by the private sector because they are a good gauge of whether a venture is likely to be successful or not.

 

[Aviador]

A further word regards their business plan. They have openly stated that the environmental implications will be offset by the redistribution of flights from other airports to DSA. So they’re quite clearly basing their plans on taking airlines from other airports.

The local Doncaster fraternity are clearly looking to take Leeds flights which is amusing considering they usually bang on about Leeds being god awful to get to. So much so in fact that they avoid using Leeds altogether. That is what they say. Interesting considering the stats back this claim as the majority of passengers using LBA are from West Yorkshire. So unbeknown to them clearly their target is Manchester, not Leeds where the majority of the passengers leak to from the South Yorkshire region. If they continue to persue Leeds traffic, the plan will fall on its arse. If they want to take on Manchester Airport traffic, I don't fancy their chances of winning that battle. A project doomed to failure from the onset.

 

[Seasider]

Even if LBA is too difficult to get to, the populace of Doncaster can easily travel to EMA/MAN where there is more choice and cheaper deals.
DSA is more convenient to the population of Doncaster, alone, about 250 000 and are they prepared to travel 10 times per year?
I wonder if they have asked them if they want to support the Airport at the actual cost of £136 million?

 

[Aviador]

Even if LBA is too difficult to get to, the populace of Doncaster can easily travel to EMA/MAN where there is more choice and cheaper deals.
DSA is more convenient to the population of Doncaster, alone, about 250 000 and are they prepared to travel 10 times per year?
I wonder if they have asked them if they want to support the Airport at the actual cost of £136 million?

I'm guessing the Leeds MP Alex Sobel who publicly campaigned against a new terminal at Leeds on the grounds of environmental concerns is somehow supporting Doncaster, along with Leeds West MP Rachel Reeves who also objected to plans for a £150 million new terminal at Leeds Bradford Airport, saying the proposals ‘would significantly increase air and noise pollution’? Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot.... Time to keep a very close eye on this now! [HASH=1713]#AlexSobelMP[/HASH][HASH=1714]#RachelReevesMP[/HASH]

 

[pug]

Even if LBA is too difficult to get to, the populace of Doncaster can easily travel to EMA/MAN where there is more choice and cheaper deals.
DSA is more convenient to the population of Doncaster, alone, about 250 000 and are they prepared to travel 10 times per year?
I wonder if they have asked them if they want to support the Airport at the actual cost of £136 million?

What DSA mk2 needs is more airlines to replicate what TUI did and focus their Yorkshire and East Midlands routes from the one location. It is not impossible by any stretch, but obviously LBA will be trying to protect their market share at all costs, particularly with their investment program.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Nobody will follow through with matching public investment if they can’t make some serious ground in gaining market share. It can’t just be a TUI base, nor can it just be an airport used for the freight that EMA isn’t too bothered about. I could see that BOH based outfit being interested.

 

[Seasider]

The BOH based outfit has just announced a new base at Cardiff, so will they be interested?

 

[pug]

The BOH based outfit has just announced a new base at Cardiff, so will they be interested?

Possibly if there is a market for it in the North. I’ve seen mention of the inland port again but there are absolutely no synergies between the bulk cargo processed by the Humber ports complex, the railways and air travel.

 

[rabbitfoot]

City of Doncaster Council (CDC) had returned a preferred bidder with a credible international airport operator which could reopen and run the airport in spring 2026.

does this mean an investor and an operater?

 

[pug]

City of Doncaster Council (CDC) had returned a preferred bidder with a credible international airport operator which could reopen and run the airport in spring 2026.

does this mean an investor and an operater?

No it means they have selected a preferred operator. The details of the ownership model are unclear and most probably not determined yet.

The operator will operate on behalf of the council at cost to the council, they would then like to investigate handing some or all of the business over to the private sector ‘but they need to prove viability before private sector will be confident’ is the paraphrased tagline. They blame this lack of interest on the fact that Peel own the freehold, and have intimated that they would like to purchase the site which appears to be part of the long term plan. They have mentioned a special investment vehicle which would mean a split of investment/risk between public sector, investor and operator.

Lots of variables that aren’t elaborated on but what’s new?

 

[Stagman]

Right let me spell out the company set up.



Operator ----------\
CDC/ SYMCA ------- = Doncaster City Airport Project
Investor -----------/


Doncaster City Airport Project (whatever it will be called) is the holding company.

Then you will have the operational company that will be the day to day running, say for instance Doncaster Robin Hood.


So you will have the holding company Doncaster City Airport Project, this is where all the funding is pooled together then drip fed into the airport operational company Doncaster Robin Hood.


If you are unsure what is meant by what I say, take a look up the road at Teesside Airport and you can see clearly how it works.

TVCA/ Stobart (now the Foundation) - Goosepool - Teesside International Airport Limited.

Funders - Holding Company - Operational Company.

 

[pug]

Right let me spell out the company set up.



Operator ----------\
CDC/ SYMCA ------- = Doncaster City Airport Project
Investor -----------/


Doncaster City Airport Project (whatever it will be called) is the holding company.

Then you will have the operational company that will be the day to day running, say for instance Doncaster Robin Hood.


So you will have the holding company Doncaster City Airport Project, this is where all the funding is pooled together then drip fed into the airport operational company Doncaster Robin Hood.


If you are unsure what is meant by what I say, take a look up the road at Teesside Airport and you can see clearly how it works.

TVCA/ Stobart (now the Foundation) - Goosepool - Teesside International Airport Limited.

Funders - Holding Company - Operational Company.

That’s in essence how it will look, but the question I think rabbitfoot was asking is more of whether they have an investor. At the moment they don’t but that is an aspiration, but the money will all come from the public sector until confidence in the business can be attained enough for the private sector to invest. By which time I would expect more shares to be relinquished to the private sector to share the risk/reward. In the case of Teesside, the operator (investor?) walked away and their 25% share was transferred to a charitable trust.

 

[Stagman]

In the case of Teesside, the operator (investor?) walked away and their 25% share was transferred to a charitable trust.

TVCA was the investor, Stobart was the Operator.

TIAL is now the Operator in itself.

 

[pug]

TVCA was the investor, Stobart was the Operator.

TIAL is now the Operator in itself.

Which to be clear is a public sector investor, there is no private sector input into the operation since Stobart (Esken) withdrew.

 

[Aviador]

What DSA mk2 needs is more airlines to replicate what TUI did and focus their Yorkshire and East Midlands routes from the one location.

I don't think the DSA base was anywhere near as profitable for Tui as some will have us believe. The base struggled with what three or four 737 equipment with the odd 787 at its peak. It wasn't exactly a runaway sucess. A return for them to DSA won't necessarily materialise. They have re-established at their other airports, namely Manchester and East Midlands. Meanwhile at Leeds, despite the terminal constraints and ongoing night flying shanigans, the Jet2 base flourished during the same period and continues to do so today so I can't imagine why they would jepodise their Leeds base to facilitate a new venture at DSA where numerous others have failed.

 

[pug]

I don't think the DSA base was anywhere near as profitable for Tui as some will have us believe. The base struggled with what three or four 737 equipment with the odd 787 at its peak. It wasn't exactly a runaway sucess. A return for them to DSA won't necessarily materialise. They have re-established at their other airports, namely Manchester and East Midlands. Meanwhile at Leeds, despite the terminal constraints and ongoing night flying shanigans, the Jet2 base flourished during the same period and continues to do so today so I can't imagine why they would jepodise their Leeds base to facilitate a new venture at DSA where numerous others have failed.

The story goes that DSA was TUIs strongest in the U.K. for sales. This is something that was frequently mentioned pre-DSA when Thomson used to do a lot of flights out of HUY, where HUY sold well because people would pay for the convenience. You can maybe see this with TUI at HUY now, with load factors at 100% at some points this year. But I recall after DSA opened at one point HUY had 8 flights to PMI per week and one was a 767 on a w from LBA! So there’s something in it.

TUI said at something a friend was recently attending for recruitment that DSA was the least popular base amongst flight crew when it was open, it was rarely anyone’s first choice put it that way!

Agree about Jet2 but since PM retired things have changed. I can’t imagine the LPL base would have happened had he still been involved, but that’s just my opinion. BOH certainly wouldn’t have happened for other reasons! So who knows, perhaps now he’s gone SH might be about to make a uturn on it. Still, the market isn’t as big so they’d be taking a big risk in doing so, lots going on at the moment like the fleet change and reducing load factors which they may mean consolidation is the order of the day for a while.

My betting would be TUI to return, Wizz may return to some of the Eastern European routes and run from LBA concurrently, and to provide volume I think they’ll be talking to easyjet. But no advanced discussions can happen yet because the operator isn’t signed up, I’m awaiting WHs update from the consultative committee but I expect LBA will be doubling down on their discussions with airlines current and new to try to solidify their position, this is something that will hinder DSA commercially due to first mover advantage. I expect the same of EMA.

I’ve seen some people who claim to know who the operator are suggesting that the operator will attract airlines to link up DSA with other airports on their network. It doesn’t work like that, it’s a stupid idea.

 

[Rob c DSA]

I don't think the DSA base was anywhere near as profitable for Tui as some will have us believe. The base struggled with what three or four 737 equipment with the odd 787 at its peak. It wasn't exactly a runaway sucess. A return for them to DSA won't necessarily materialise. They have re-established at their other airports, namely Manchester and East Midlands. Meanwhile at Leeds, despite the terminal constraints and ongoing night flying shanigans, the Jet2 base flourished during the same period and continues to do so today so I can't imagine why they would jepodise their Leeds base to facilitate a new venture at DSA where numerous others have failed.

Bit unfair in regards to TUI/DSA, the constant bashing by supporters of LBA is quite boring yes DSA failed its been done to death but the constant sniping and whining at everything DSA isn't needed, those who frequent the FB groups or whatever who make wild claims who had no interest in the airport till it shut and the manic mechanic feeding them drivel is frustrating and doesn't help but I don't know why so many LBA fans are getting would up about these clueless people with clueless claims a DSA mark 2 will be the best thing since sliced bread and have to keep having a dig at all things DSA on here, why not take it up with those people making the wild claims elsewhere and put them right.

So in regards to TUI a small regional airport like DSA was supposed to have how many based units from them, at the end it was 4 based part the week 5 the rest with the 787 operating 2 long haul flights how many more should the place have had realistically?. Has any current small regional airport with under 2m pax a year on our shores got a based carrier be it TUI, Jet 2 Ryanair or easyJet with more based units I think not.

Hasn't it been stated elsewhere on here this week that a similar sized airport to what DSA was is having similar problems yet again in attracting carriers/flights and mustered a handful of flights the other day which to its supporters and anyone else for that matter is quite a shockingly low amount of flights add it has not many more flights tomorrow unfortunatley then add a whole other number of regional airports all around the UK who yet again tomorrow and this winter as normal will have very sparse departure boards. It's the regional airport scene it wasn't just a DSA problem attracting flights and won't be if/when the place reopens.

 

[pug]

Bit unfair in regards to TUI/DSA, the constant bashing by supporters of LBA is quite boring yes DSA failed its been done to death but the constant sniping and whining at everything DSA isn't needed, those who frequent the FB groups or whatever who make wild claims who had no interest in the airport till it shut and the manic mechanic feeding them drivel is frustrating and doesn't help but I don't know why so many LBA fans are getting would up about these clueless people with clueless claims a DSA mark 2 will be the best thing since sliced bread and have to keep having a dig at all things DSA on here, why not take it up with those people making the wild claims elsewhere and put them right.

So in regards to TUI a small regional airport like DSA was supposed to have how many based units from them, at the end it was 4 based part the week 5 the rest with the 787 operating 2 long haul flights how many more should the place have had realistically?. Has any current small regional airport with under 2m pax a year on our shores got a based carrier be it TUI, Jet 2 Ryanair or easyJet with more based units I think not.

Hasn't it been stated elsewhere on here this week that a similar sized airport to what DSA was is having similar problems yet again in attracting carriers/flights and mustered a handful of flights the other day which to its supporters and anyone else for that matter is quite a shockingly low amount of flights add it has not many more flights tomorrow unfortunatley then add a whole other number of regional airports all around the UK who yet again tomorrow and this winter as normal will have very sparse departure boards. It's the regional airport scene it wasn't just a DSA problem attracting flights and won't be if/when the place reopens.

What?

Anyway I don’t see any problem with people having somewhere to document the goings on and perhaps even vent their frustrations away from the positivity fest that is the other forums (although that seems to be lacking funnily enough) and various other social media outlets where people who have a valid opinion often get fed up of posting. Two of my colleagues (one from near Doncaster!) stopped posting on FB because they kept getting attacked on there and it wasn’t worth the aggro. So you only get one side of the argument.

Do I think it was a huge mistake to open in the first place? Yes absolutely. Do i think it’s even bigger mistake to reopen it using lots of public money? Totally, it’s scandalous to be honest and I personally hope they are held accountable.

If they’ve got some serious interest then I’m open to it doing well, but you can’t change the fact that people didn’t support it enough first time around, that’s unlikely to change next time.

 

[Rob c DSA]

What?

Anyway I don’t see any problem with people having somewhere to document the goings on and perhaps even vent their frustrations away from the positivity fest that is the other forums (although that seems to be lacking funnily enough) and various other social media outlets where people who have a valid opinion often get fed up of posting. Two of my colleagues (one from near Doncaster!) stopped posting on FB because they kept getting attacked on there and it wasn’t worth the aggro. So you only get one side of the argument.

Do I think it was a huge mistake to open in the first place? Yes absolutely. Do i think it’s even bigger mistake to reopen it using lots of public money? Totally, it’s scandalous to be honest and I personally hope they are held accountable.

If they’ve got some serious interest then I’m open to it doing well, but you can’t change the fact that people didn’t support it enough first time around, that’s unlikely to change next time.

Surely the above post re TUI is just negativity TUI were one of the few successes whatever terms they or anyone else were getting otherwise they'd have flown the nest as well. DSA wasn't just a one off case of an airport struggling to survive or make money. I've said all along the place had huge issue's and predicted its closure years ago elsewhere that wasn't welcomed by DSA supporters which I am one of but not with with the rose tinted specs. I was one of the biggest critics even though it was my local airport.

Slag the airport off fine but not it's few successes.

I totally agree with the sentiments of not opening the place for it to fail again it seems to be a crazy idea and a complete waste of funds that could be spent better elsewhere but thats the plan as things stand until we are told different. Whatever happens be it in 3 months 12 months or 5-10 years time the proof will be in the pudding be it a reopenng or not I really hope if it reopens it is a success or a number of people really need holding accountable for a vast amount of money being washed down the drain the omens don't appear good on what the past has proved and what pople in the industry are predicting will happen again yet another struggle but it seems someone somewhere has a belief they can do a better job and make money however crazy that seems to the majority unless the whole things not as rosy as some people are making out.

 

[pug]

Surely the above post re TUI is just negativity TUI were one of the few successes whatever terms they or anyone else were getting otherwise they'd have flown the nest as well. DSA wasn't just a one off case of an airport struggling to survive or make money. I've said all along the place had huge issue's and predicted its closure years ago elsewhere that wasn't welcomed by DSA supporters which I am one of but not with with the rose tinted specs. I was one of the biggest critics even though it was my local airport.

Slag the airport off fine but not it's few successes.

I totally agree with the sentiments of not opening the place for it to fail again it seems to be a crazy idea and a complete waste of funds that could be spent better elsewhere but thats the plan as things stand until we are told different. Whatever happens be it in 3 months 12 months or 5-10 years time the proof will be in the pudding be it a reopenng or not I really hope if it reopens it is a success or a number of people really need holding accountable for a vast amount of money being washed down the drain the omens don't appear good on what the past has proved and what pople in the industry are predicting will happen again yet another struggle but it seems someone somewhere has a belief they can do a better job and make money however crazy that seems to the majority unless the whole things not as rosy as some people are making out.

It’s not about slagging off the airport, for me it’s something that Peel shouldn’t have been allowed to do in the first place. They should have kept Sheffield City running as a GA and business airfield and allowed the other airports to grow organically. It was predicated on LBA losing out (similar to the proposals in the 80’s to build an airfield on Thorne moors), and it was predicted to fail and it did. The fact that the council want to resurrect it screams of vanity project, Oliver Coppard has reigned in the excitement by reiterating that there is still work to do. Some Sheffield Council execs have said the plans are as a result of confirmation bias. I fully agree.

I doubt the council have any tangible interest from airlines, they can’t until they have an operator and the holding company is set up as you can’t sign a contract without one! So I remain to be convinced, and if it does reopen I doubt it will be any more successful than it was before, nobody will be able to match Peel on airline deals and subsidies, least of all the council.

 

[Finger66]

If the pro DSA fans stop bashing LBA then you may just find the reverse stops too. You can't have it all ways, especially when we are talking about an airport that is currently open